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OS Roundtable: Non-Licensed Football

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Old 04-09-2008, 10:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManiacMatt1782
It's thinking like this, that no matter how well a game ends up playing, if it's not madden, It gonna fail. I have come to this realization that the NFL license just means that much to people nowadays. No one remembers Madden 93. which despite not having and NFL, or NFL pa license was a fun football game. Or NFL PA 93 which only had the players license, but couldnt use the real NHL teams, but still one of the top hockey games of all time "MAKE GRETZKY BLEED" Video Games have been around so long, most people either, were too young to remember a time where noone had the major sports league licenses. or have been playing so long that the license is expected. Well the NFL, EA, Take 2, and other companies ar bringing us into a world with exclusive licenses. And I feel its our duty as consumers, to buy the best quality product, and that isn't always the one with the name brand. Case in point. If backbreaker for example does infact become something revolutionary, i still doubt it sells much more than APF 2k8, if it even elipses it at all. People are hooked on the license. NCAA MVP 06 improved upon everything on MVP 05 gameplay wise, but it was college baseball and you didnt have MLB teams players and stadiums. so it failed. everyone cried for mvp to comeback but they didnt support the version trhat came out after they lost the license, even though it was a superior game. when people lose this addiction to the license is when we may start seeing better games.
I think with sports games though the license is just crucially important, unlike basically any other genre. A lot of times you play the sports games because you've watched the sport for so long and want to treat it like a simulation, except now you are making the sport your own experience. You wouldn't care as much if you played a FPS that didn't have a Tom Clancy name in front of it or something else along those lines. Also as odd as it sounds, how the game play is not everything. It sounds strange to say, and obviously how the game plays is the biggest thing, but you need to feel a connection with that game outside of just the depth of the experience on the field. Without the investment in the people you play with the drive isn't the same. If you're able to build a relationship with the fake players and all that then you can get by that, but it's obviously easier to do that with players you already know from some other context outside a videogame.

And it's not to discount your point, because if you're into a sport enough you'll play whatever game (license or not) -- not to mention if game plays well you'll at least give it a chance even if it doesn't have the license. But outside of that hardcore fan it's not such a slam dunk that a gamer sticks with it. It's the reason why putting NCAA names into the game etc is so important. You don't want to play with #11 instead of (insert player here) if you can help it.
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Old 04-09-2008, 10:54 AM   #10
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I think Tecmo Bowl on the DS will end up being the best of the bunch. From what I've read/heard, it's supposed to be an update of the original NES title. For a handheld system, that's the perfect way to go. Just update the teams and rosters and leave the gameplay pretty much the same (there are a few tweaks I'd like to see) and that's going to be a good (finally) sports title for the DS.
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Old 04-09-2008, 12:21 PM   #11
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The whole license debate is a tricky subject, and honestly a great topic for a future roundtable.

At this point gamers are so used to having real teams and real players it provides a pretty big obstacle to overcome. And I think it blinds game developers as well.

Take APF. The folks at 2K Sports were so concerned about getting old players on board so they had something to market, they really neglected the idea of a franchise in their title. Personally I liked APF - it has the best on the field action of any next gen football game to date.

But they concentrated too much on the legends, not enough on actually having a franchise system - killing the long term playability of the game and leaving a big hole in the list of features on the back.

If I had a nickel for every time I talked to somebody who was all excited about APF, until seeing the life drain from their faces as they found out the franchise was just a series of seasons strung together with no draft, no trades, no salaries - well I'd have a ton of nickels.

This is my concern about Backbreaker (should it ever be released). I'm afraid we're going to get a game that concentrates so much on the mechanics of game play that we're left with a title that does little else. Sure the tackles are going to look purty - but you need more than purty tackles for a game to be successful.

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Old 04-09-2008, 12:26 PM   #12
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I'm not looking forward to any of them. I am playing the wait and see approach.
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:28 PM   #13
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Re: OS Roundtable: Non-Licensed Football

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slizeezyc
I think with sports games though the license is just crucially important, unlike basically any other genre. A lot of times you play the sports games because you've watched the sport for so long and want to treat it like a simulation, except now you are making the sport your own experience. You wouldn't care as much if you played a FPS that didn't have a Tom Clancy name in front of it or something else along those lines. Also as odd as it sounds, how the game play is not everything. It sounds strange to say, and obviously how the game plays is the biggest thing, but you need to feel a connection with that game outside of just the depth of the experience on the field. Without the investment in the people you play with the drive isn't the same. If you're able to build a relationship with the fake players and all that then you can get by that, but it's obviously easier to do that with players you already know from some other context outside a videogame.

And it's not to discount your point, because if you're into a sport enough you'll play whatever game (license or not) -- not to mention if game plays well you'll at least give it a chance even if it doesn't have the license. But outside of that hardcore fan it's not such a slam dunk that a gamer sticks with it. It's the reason why putting NCAA names into the game etc is so important. You don't want to play with #11 instead of (insert player here) if you can help it.
I understand completely. I can play a game based solely on great gameplay. I realize some people need that something extra. Most people, all they know is licenses. either that or its been so long since the played a game that was unlicensed that they forget. I don't think the license was completely necesarry for football. I think a Winning Eleven Soccer approach to football could be VERY SUCCESSFUL if they get the core things right. Gameplay has to be top notch. (winning eleven did this in soccer) Then you have to have an indepth franchise/continous seasons mode. (winning eleven also did this). Lastly you have to have good customization. edit colors, maybe a logo design, something more than generic looking logo to select. (winning eleven also did this). Then you customize the rosters the way you want. (ie rename your generic players with ratings eerily similar to the city of the same name's nfl counterpart) then you have yourself a top notch football game that sells, and makes EA actually try to improve Madden for a change instead of getting cheerleader mode this year where if you shake the pom poms the right way your team gets a stats boost.
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Old 04-09-2008, 01:39 PM   #14
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Re: OS Roundtable: Non-Licensed Football

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlyGilmore
The whole license debate is a tricky subject, and honestly a great topic for a future roundtable.

At this point gamers are so used to having real teams and real players it provides a pretty big obstacle to overcome. And I think it blinds game developers as well.

Take APF. The folks at 2K Sports were so concerned about getting old players on board so they had something to market, they really neglected the idea of a franchise in their title. Personally I liked APF - it has the best on the field action of any next gen football game to date.

But they concentrated too much on the legends, not enough on actually having a franchise system - killing the long term playability of the game and leaving a big hole in the list of features on the back.

If I had a nickel for every time I talked to somebody who was all excited about APF, until seeing the life drain from their faces as they found out the franchise was just a series of seasons strung together with no draft, no trades, no salaries - well I'd have a ton of nickels.

This is my concern about Backbreaker (should it ever be released). I'm afraid we're going to get a game that concentrates so much on the mechanics of game play that we're left with a title that does little else. Sure the tackles are going to look purty - but you need more than purty tackles for a game to be successful.
I fall in the apf2k8 boat you mentioned...if it had a franchise and the ability to edit teams maybe i'd still be interested in playing it. I'm excited for Backbreaker (Which I believe will indeed be released) and would also like to think that they have seen what failed with apf2k8 (lack of customization and franchise). Now I believe they will release the game that has almost knock-off free, with lots of customization and a franchise, simply because they would be a little dim not to after being witness to and seeing the clear and loud complaints and dissapointments that came out of apf's release.

I wouldn't have said this a couple of years ago, but to me franchise > than license. Backbreaker will more than likely be the only football game i pick up this year. Madden has a decent franchise, but playing an actual game within its existing state is not enjoyable or compelling - I'd rather sim through, but what's the point in that case, I NEED to actually enjoy playing.
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Old 04-09-2008, 02:28 PM   #15
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Re: OS Roundtable: Non-Licensed Football

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlyGilmore
Sorry but I don't understand the "we have to hype Backbreaker because Madden sucks" philosophy. I've heard other folks argue the same thing last year, and it didn't work out too well for All-Pro Football when all was said and done.

Now I'm not saying Backbreaker might not be good, but I'll need a bit more than some videos of tackles from three angles to go ga-ga over a game when nobody knows what to expect.
that's what I've been saying in the Backbreaker thread. People want to hype it up as the savior of football games, but it's ultimately just a new football game being developed by a company that has little experience actually making games. There's not even much more out about it than some short clips and interviews. It'll be a nice thing to try because of the euphoria engine, but to expect it to do much right out of the gate is a little foolish.

I want it to be good, as I don't like madden and fizzled out on APF in like a week, but I've been reading how people want it to have serious customization, full franchise, and other features that even EA and 2k struggled with. They're probably working with fewer resources than 2k had for APF2k8, and Backbreaker won't even have the cult fanbase that 2k had starving for APF2k8.

Last edited by bkfount; 04-09-2008 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 04-09-2008, 02:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManiacMatt1782
I understand completely. I can play a game based solely on great gameplay. I realize some people need that something extra. Most people, all they know is licenses. either that or its been so long since the played a game that was unlicensed that they forget. I don't think the license was completely necesarry for football. I think a Winning Eleven Soccer approach to football could be VERY SUCCESSFUL if they get the core things right. Gameplay has to be top notch. (winning eleven did this in soccer) Then you have to have an indepth franchise/continous seasons mode. (winning eleven also did this). Lastly you have to have good customization. edit colors, maybe a logo design, something more than generic looking logo to select. (winning eleven also did this). Then you customize the rosters the way you want. (ie rename your generic players with ratings eerily similar to the city of the same name's nfl counterpart) then you have yourself a top notch football game that sells, and makes EA actually try to improve Madden for a change instead of getting cheerleader mode this year where if you shake the pom poms the right way your team gets a stats boost.
Yea I'm in agreement there. I've been playing WE over FIFA every year until this year, and now I'm not really satisfied with either on the current gen consoles (Although Euro seems like a step in the right direction, and you got to think WE will come back strong next year). And I largely stuck with WE because the customization was there to allow me to still get my license fix via DLs.
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