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Sliders: I Don't Get It

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Old 10-17-2008, 04:20 PM   #25
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Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

Quote:
Originally Posted by asu666
Is the point of this article that developers should strip even more options away from the people who purchase their games? Waste of space imo.
After reading all the posts here, I'm quoting this one because I can answer this question. I was going to quote the post that said "This is the dumbest article I have ever read on OS." but that would have been too much fun.

First, I am Joey, the uninformed author of this article and I have no problem admitting that. The title of the article tells you, "I Don't Get It." Some of your posts were very informative and I appreciate that. Some of your posts were not so informative. lol.

I should tell you about my gaming background as that will also help you understand why I don't get sliders. I'm a sim freak. I've never been a fps or button mashing guy. For example. I pre-ordered Madden CE, went to the midnight party at my local GameCrazy and took home a 2 litre bottle of pepsi and a wee plush football. I have not taken the Madden 09 disk out of its bed once. Not one single time. I bought Madden CE for Head Coach. My comrades in the Head Coach forum know me quite well lol, and my distaste for sliders.

When I open a game, any game, I want the confidence of knowing that this is the best possible game the developers could have made. Now I realize that the "business" of gaming makes that a pipe-dream, yet I still dream.

Which leads me to ASU's question. He asked what the point of the article was. The point, actually the question I want answered is don't you feel like if there were not sliders, then the developers would be forced to make the game as realistic as possible before shipping it? That is what I worry about. That instead of putting the realism (and if I'm reading all your posts correctly THAT is why you change sliders, to make it more realistic, challenging) in our, the gamers hands, would not having sliders force the developers to make the near-perfect game?

I'm not a programmer. I don't want to have to spend the countless hours of "tweaking" sliders to make the game realistic and challenging. One of the other posts made a great point about the variances in sports games. There are too many variables in football especially, but I'm sure all sports, to even know what the "base-line" is. Then where are you? Do you have to change the sliders every time you play a different team like mentioned in another post? When does it end? Why do we have to do it in the first place?

That is what the point of the article is.

Flame on
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Old 10-17-2008, 04:29 PM   #26
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This is the worst article I've ever read. Sliders are the essential part of having realistic games in Sports gaming. Apparently this guy likes the Blitz series better than real football or something.....
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Old 10-17-2008, 05:14 PM   #27
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First, this is far from the worst article I've read on OS.

Second, I think you raise some very interesting points, but those points are perhaps presented in a way which (intentional or not) will get most sports gamers upset. Here's why I think most of the comments to your article are negative.

When the "next gen" of sports games were introduced they lacked the extreme customizability of the last generation of games. Players had come to expect that they could create the team or player or franchies of their dreams. Now, with next gen sports gaming just begining to recover, players are reluctant to give up any sort of customizability in their games. Systems like the "my skill" system are novel but ultimatly anger the diehards when they don't life up to the hype. When someone suggests that sliders are a "crutch" for developers, it deviates from the percieved notion of sliders as a feature for the more dedicated sports gamers.

I agree that one sould not have to spend hours of time tweeking sliders and gameplay just to make the game enjoyable, and for some games this has become a reality. But to take away sliders now would ostrasize the very people who give meaningful feedback to developers on games. You or I may not enjoy it, but it is the people who spend hours and hours tweeking sliders who perhaps know the games the best.

So I agree that this discussion is necessary and I understand your concerns, but persenting your arguments in a way which are clearly meant to incite riot is perhaps not the best way to get a level headed discussion started.
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Old 10-17-2008, 05:22 PM   #28
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Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloeyEZ
the question I want answered is don't you feel like if there were not sliders, then the developers would be forced to make the game as realistic as possible before shipping it? That is what I worry about. That instead of putting the realism (and if I'm reading all your posts correctly THAT is why you change sliders, to make it more realistic, challenging) in our, the gamers hands, would not having sliders force the developers to make the near-perfect game?

I'm not a programmer. I don't want to have to spend the countless hours of "tweaking" sliders to make the game realistic and challenging. One of the other posts made a great point about the variances in sports games. There are too many variables in football especially, but I'm sure all sports, to even know what the "base-line" is. Then where are you? Do you have to change the sliders every time you play a different team like mentioned in another post? When does it end? Why do we have to do it in the first place?

That is what the point of the article is.

Flame on
I can agree about developers sometimes getting lazy which is why sliders can sometimes be necessary. For example, the EA team thinks kickers have super human legs where everyone can nail 60 yarders. That should be fixed on default rather than forcing us to change sliders.

However, your entire tone which you started at the beginning of the article, was to belittle people that adjust sliders. You accused people of adjusting sliders rather than practicing assuming that people that change sliders do so to make the game easier.

Furthermore, you make the assumption that people who use sliders spend hours on them or are constantly changing them. I do like to play with sliders but my "testing" is just by playing my games in the dynasty mode. Over time if I don't like something I tweak it. I don't spend hours testing or get overly frustrated by it. If it weren't for sliders, I would have probably given up on a lot of the football games released in the last couple years. I love sliders and I'm glad I have them. You clearly don't understand why people use them but I hope you are learning.

As far as I'm concerned, you are telling everyone to eat a pizza with no toppings. Sliders are the great ingredients like pepperoni, bacon, mushrooms, peppers, etc. Why would I be satisfied eating a cheese pizza when I could be adding meat to it? Or why would I eat a pineapple and ham pizza when I don't want pineapple on my pizza? Quite frankly, I think anyone who doesn't use sliders is nuts. I'd much rather eat my pepperoni, bacon, ham and mushroom pizza than just simply accept whatever slice someone throws on my plate.

Last edited by rudyjuly2; 10-17-2008 at 05:43 PM. Reason: pizza analogy
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Old 10-17-2008, 06:16 PM   #29
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Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

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Originally Posted by rudyjuly2
As far as I'm concerned, you are telling everyone to eat a pizza with no toppings. Sliders are the great ingredients like pepperoni, bacon, mushrooms, peppers, etc. Why would I be satisfied eating a cheese pizza when I could be adding meat to it? Or why would I eat a pineapple and ham pizza when I don't want pineapple on my pizza? Quite frankly, I think anyone who doesn't use sliders is nuts. I'd much rather eat my pepperoni, bacon, ham and mushroom pizza than just simply accept whatever slice someone throws on my plate.
Nice metaphor so I'll continue with it.

I don't want cheese pizza either. I want the meat lovers deluxe with everything on it, well not in real life , irl I actually like cheese pizza, but for my sports games I do want the deluxe.

I just don't want to bring home the cheese pizza that the developer's sell me and then have to slice my own pepperoni, cook and crumble my own sausage, slice all the veggies, and so forth and so on and add them to my pizza on my own! I mean what if I put Anchovies on it and then my pizza sucks but I don't know it's the anchovies making my pie suck, so first I take off the sliced tomatoes, which makes the pineapple slices stronger but my pizza still sucks, so I take off the pineapple and yech, it still sucks. AND I paid $65 + for this pizza

I want the professional pizza makers to give me a pizza that has everything it is supposed to have on it so it doesn't taste like crap!

Do I still not get it? Maybe it's not that I don't get sliders, maybe it's just that I wish we lived in a world where we didn't have to have sliders???

flame on...
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Old 10-17-2008, 06:16 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SloeyEZ
After reading all the posts here, I'm quoting this one because I can answer this question. I was going to quote the post that said "This is the dumbest article I have ever read on OS." but that would have been too much fun.

First, I am Joey, the uninformed author of this article and I have no problem admitting that. The title of the article tells you, "I Don't Get It." Some of your posts were very informative and I appreciate that. Some of your posts were not so informative. lol.

I should tell you about my gaming background as that will also help you understand why I don't get sliders. I'm a sim freak. I've never been a fps or button mashing guy. For example. I pre-ordered Madden CE, went to the midnight party at my local GameCrazy and took home a 2 litre bottle of pepsi and a wee plush football. I have not taken the Madden 09 disk out of its bed once. Not one single time. I bought Madden CE for Head Coach. My comrades in the Head Coach forum know me quite well lol, and my distaste for sliders.

When I open a game, any game, I want the confidence of knowing that this is the best possible game the developers could have made. Now I realize that the "business" of gaming makes that a pipe-dream, yet I still dream.

Which leads me to ASU's question. He asked what the point of the article was. The point, actually the question I want answered is don't you feel like if there were not sliders, then the developers would be forced to make the game as realistic as possible before shipping it? That is what I worry about. That instead of putting the realism (and if I'm reading all your posts correctly THAT is why you change sliders, to make it more realistic, challenging) in our, the gamers hands, would not having sliders force the developers to make the near-perfect game?

I'm not a programmer. I don't want to have to spend the countless hours of "tweaking" sliders to make the game realistic and challenging. One of the other posts made a great point about the variances in sports games. There are too many variables in football especially, but I'm sure all sports, to even know what the "base-line" is. Then where are you? Do you have to change the sliders every time you play a different team like mentioned in another post? When does it end? Why do we have to do it in the first place?

That is what the point of the article is.

Flame on
I think you are missing the point of sliders, at least from the end user's perspective. It's about options. "Correct out of the box" is very subjective. It might be functionally correct, but either too easy or too hard for some. MLB: The Show is the best example of this. There are options to ramp up percieved pitch speed or tune it down. This compensates for differences in players individual reaction times. I may react very quickly, but someone may be a bit slower...or even faster. It's to compensate for the obvious fact that we are all different and want different things from our game. I agree with a previous poster who stated (as many have) that hitting is too easy in The Show. some feel it's just fine. Who's right? Neither...again, it's subjective. There have been calls for even more (or at least more sensative) sliders to compensate. I am fine with this because the hitting engine is functionally sound, it just needs tweaking, IMO. This way, I get what I want and those who think it's fine get wehat they want. Sliders, when incorporated effectively and not used as a crutch (as, admittedly, some games have done) are a complete win-win. You aren't required to use them and you certainly don't have to go by any so-called 'slider guru" to make good use of them easier. The slider forums are just another way for gamers to share what works for them in hopes it will work for others...another win-win.

Also, I think you'd get a lot more rational reaction if your article (intentional or otherwise) didn't affect the tone of superiority over and condemnation of those who effectively use sliders. You don't get it or don't want to and that's fine. The reality is that most people who vehemently demand more effective sliders are people who want to make the game more challenging and representative of the given sport...not the other way around as you imply. I don't know your intentions, but tone is a very fine balancing act when writing opinion pieces...just my opinion
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Old 10-17-2008, 06:19 PM   #31
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I don't have a problem with including sliders, as long as game developers aren't sacrificing the integrity of the game by including them. It seems some (if not most) sports games are released with atrocious AI and other glaring flaws. Developers many not care about "getting it right" because they know users have sliders to help alleviate any shortcomings. While I appreciate having this tool, I'd personally much rather have a game that "just works" out of the box. As it stands now, these games force me to spend far too much time tweaking and obsessing over finding a good set of sliders that will make a game somewhat enjoyable. Many of the best sports games I've ever played were released prior to the introduction of sliders. That says something, I think.

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Old 10-17-2008, 06:29 PM   #32
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Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoxFan01605
I think you are missing the point of sliders, at least from the end user's perspective. It's about options. "Correct out of the box" is very subjective. It might be functionally correct, but either too easy or too hard for some. MLB: The Show is the best example of this. There are options to ramp up percieved pitch speed or tune it down. This compensates for differences in players individual reaction times. I may react very quickly, but someone may be a bit slower...or even faster. It's to compensate for the obvious fact that we are all different and want different things from our game. I agree with a previous poster who stated (as many have) that hitting is too easy in The Show. some feel it's just fine. Who's right? Neither...again, it's subjective. There have been calls for even more (or at least more sensative) sliders to compensate. I am fine with this because the hitting engine is functionally sound, it just needs tweaking, IMO. This way, I get what I want and those who think it's fine get wehat they want. Sliders, when incorporated effectively and not used as a crutch (as, admittedly, some games have done) are a complete win-win. You aren't required to use them and you certainly don't have to go by any so-called 'slider guru" to make good use of them easier. The slider forums are just another way for gamers to share what works for them in hopes it will work for others...another win-win.

Also, I think you'd get a lot more rational reaction if your article (intentional or otherwise) didn't affect the tone of superiority over and condemnation of those who effectively use sliders. You don't get it or don't want to and that's fine. The reality is that most people who vehemently demand more effective sliders are people who want to make the game more challenging and representative of the given sport...not the other way around as you imply. I don't know your intentions, but tone is a very fine balancing act when writing opinion pieces...just my opinion
Well maybe I struck a match on purpose don't blame me though, I'm a product of sensationalized local newscasts

But you talk about perceived pitch speed and even though I've never played the show, wouldn't you want a "major league" pitch speed that is consistent with the actual professional level? I realize what you are saying that that speed may be too fast for some and too slow for others. My contention is that instead of being able to slow down the pitch speed, those players would just have to practice until they got used to it and those that found it easy would just be better players...just like in real life.

That is what I would like to see in a sports game. I don't want to feel like I'm being patronized. I want to (since I play Head Coach) see if I have what it takes to coach in the NFL. I want it to be a "simulation" of how difficult it truly is to handle a NFL team.

Let me give you an example. In head coach, when it first came out, there was a kicking problem. Most kickers would miss 20-30 yard FG 1/2 the time. That is obviously a development issue. It is not realistic. Some people chose to change the sliders. I didn't. I drafted a kicker with a power rating of 97. He didn't miss the 20-30 yarders in fact he made a 53 yarder. He also missed some 40+ don't get me wrong, but, I adjusted as a coach would in real life, I got a stronger kicker.

There is no equivalent to a "slider" in real life. And again, remember I am a "simmer" not an arcade player, so I want my game to handle like real life and there are no sliders in real life.

flame on...
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