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Sliders: I Don't Get It

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Old 10-20-2008, 04:00 PM   #65
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Cool Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

Quote:
Originally Posted by countryboy
for me, I rarely, rarely, and I mean rarely use sliders. To me, adjusting sliders means that you are trying to get a "predetermined" outcome thus eliminating the unpredictability of the game. Also, in my opinion, slider adjustments become a never ending, vicious cycle. You are playing the game to see if it "plays correctly" instead of playing the game to, well, play the game.

Now having said that, do I think that sliders should be removed? Absolutely not. They have become a mainstream in sports games and in all honesty, the more options given to the user, the better. We all have different opinions of what a "sim" game is and sliders gives the users the ability to adjust the game to their "sim level".
LOL...at your 'predetermined' outcome...Yea because its perfectly normal to play a baseball game like MLB 2K8 where the CPU never walks a batter, throwing w/ perfect control, and hitting every corner...

Man...and its just too doggone hard to take that AI throws to corners/AI pitcher control slider down about 30-40 clicks from default so that Adam Eaton doesn't pitch a complete gem against me every time I face him. OMG the difficulty involved...

fooey on me for trying to come up w/ that predetermined outcome...I should've known better the CPU AI knew that Adam Eaton was capable of pitching like Jake Peavy....Or that the New York Knicks were supposed to shoot 63% from the field in both times I faced them in my sixers association.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfsolo
Predetermined, yeah to a certain extent, what we're trying to do is to created a reasonable standard deviation.

Steve Kerr hold the NBA record for 3pt percentage in a season at 52%. Playing out a 20-year association it should be quite an amazing thing if you saw 2 or 3 guys TOPS, equal or surpass that number, and if they do it should be around 55% max.

Now if 3 guys on your team shoot 65% from 3 land every season, well then you aren't playing a game that is emulating NBA basketball. For a lot of people that's totally o.k., for a lot of us here at OS, its not.

We already know about the game being tuned for casual players, but in addition to that no matter how knowledgeable about their sport, and talented they are at their craft, its clear to me that all development teams have their eccentricities as well as "blind spots". They fall in love with certain animations, or don't like to work the count as a batter in baseball, it could be 100 different things.

Sliders allow us to deal with those personal developer quirks that lesson the authenticity of the experience. Talking about "not getting it" I never got the whole "as the developer intended" mantra. History has shown us that as long as the "fun factor" credo exists there will be many liberties taken when developing a sports games.

At least we have a way to ameliorate many of those design decisions.
Great post...

Man I remember when I heard a podcast (on this site), about the upcoming MLB2K8 w/ Uber baseball game developer Ben Brinkman...

He stated that when he (the games developer) likes to play a baseball gm...he doesn't want to sit through a bunch of pitches.

He likes the CPU pitcher to throw him strikes so he can hit the ball...Which essentially is how MLB2K8 played pre-slider edits...

So there's your case of developer influence on how the game plays...If it wasn't for editing sliders we all...baseball purists, and the casual fan, would have to play the same kind of baseball gm.

I'm not OK w/ that in the least bit...so thank god I can edit the CPU's 'hitting power' slider so that Omar Vizquel isn't taking me deep 3-4 times a gm.
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Old 10-20-2008, 07:52 PM   #66
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Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfsolo
Predetermined, yeah to a certain extent, what we're trying to do is to created a reasonable standard deviation.

Steve Kerr hold the NBA record for 3pt percentage in a season at 52%. Playing out a 20-year association it should be quite an amazing thing if you saw 2 or 3 guys TOPS, equal or surpass that number, and if they do it should be around 55% max.

Now if 3 guys on your team shoot 65% from 3 land every season, well then you aren't playing a game that is emulating NBA basketball. For a lot of people that's totally o.k., for a lot of us here at OS, its not.

We already know about the game being tuned for casual players, but in addition to that no matter how knowledgeable about their sport, and talented they are at their craft, its clear to me that all development teams have their eccentricities as well as "blind spots". They fall in love with certain animations, or don't like to work the count as a batter in baseball, it could be 100 different things.

Sliders allow us to deal with those personal developer quirks that lesson the authenticity of the experience. Talking about "not getting it" I never got the whole "as the developer intended" mantra. History has shown us that as long as the "fun factor" credo exists there will be many liberties taken when developing a sports games.

At least we have a way to ameliorate many of those design decisions.
I agree, this is a very good post. A great argument for the other side if things. But still, no one can seem to make an argument against Sliders affecting every player. By devs including Sliders, and by gamers adjusting Sliders, there's still heavy dictation over players original numerical ratings. So, adjust the game to see less blocks, but some players are really good at blocks, and now are penalized. Or, heighten the steals, but some players really suck at steals, and are now rewarded. So, in the end, it's not an actual NBA, MLB, or NFL game, it's YOUR version of it. CHECK THE SIG!
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Old 10-21-2008, 02:38 PM   #67
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Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

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Originally Posted by LAKE4742
So, in the end, it's not an actual NBA, MLB, or NFL game, it's YOUR version of it.
True, but I rather play my version instead of the devs version.
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:24 PM   #68
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Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

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Originally Posted by bsb13
True, but I rather play my version instead of the devs version.
and i'd rather play the devs version and their success i.e. my $$$$ depends on them getting it right.

Let me present one other viewpoint here. NASCAR. Nascar has oogles of sliders for adjusting the car. They are however, actual set-ups and modifications to the car, not to the game.

So why aren't the sliders tuned to the players instead of the game? For example, instead of having a slider to increase defensive tackles...why not have a "slider" that designates the amount of time spent in the weightroom and tackling dummies and another part of their game must suffer like speed or play knowledge etc.

That would be an example of if devs were not using sliders as "crutches" (and yes I know you don't agree with that point) perhaps they would spend time using their ingenuity to replace sliders and the need for sliders with actual in-game functions/training?

Is that a middle ground we could perhaps settle on regarding the topic of sliders?
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Old 10-24-2008, 01:48 PM   #69
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Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

I don't get the sliders either. There never used to be any sliders back in the day. Now it seems almost every sports game has a bevy of sliders, with little or no explaination to what they actually do. Many times the sliders don't even seem to do anything. \

Imo, programmers have gotten lazier over the years and too much emphasis has been placed on graphics instead of ai and gameplay with the advent of consoles with greater graphics processing capabilities. In addition, it seems programmers think the 'best' way to make a game more challenging is to give the cpu 'enhanced' physical abilities, rather than make them smarter as you increase difficulty levels.

I'm a huge hockey gamer and would love to see a game be published with only a slider for difficulty that would only make the ai smarter, while the rest of the game played like real hockey. I'm tired of messing with sliders to no end trying to get the game to play like real hockey. Yes, I hear people's arguments about "personalization" and all. But, to me, if you want to play arcade hockey, go buy an arcade game like NHL Hitz. If you look at the slider threads here, or at any other sports gaming site, you'll see that the bulk of the discussion is how to adjust the sliders to get the games to play as realistic as possible. Rarely if ever do you see a request by someone who asks, "How do I get the game to play super fast with ridiculously huge hits?"

Enough with the sliders already. Just program the damn game like the real sport. Seriously, how hard can it be to get the physics right? I play other games with physics involved and there aren't any sliders for those? Why do we need the option to alter the laws of physics in sports games? I dunno, I just don't get it.
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:36 PM   #70
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Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

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Originally Posted by original6
I don't get the sliders either. There never used to be any sliders back in the day. Now it seems almost every sports game has a bevy of sliders, with little or no explaination to what they actually do. Many times the sliders don't even seem to do anything. \

Imo, programmers have gotten lazier over the years and too much emphasis has been placed on graphics instead of ai and gameplay with the advent of consoles with greater graphics processing capabilities. In addition, it seems programmers think the 'best' way to make a game more challenging is to give the cpu 'enhanced' physical abilities, rather than make them smarter as you increase difficulty levels.

I'm a huge hockey gamer and would love to see a game be published with only a slider for difficulty that would only make the ai smarter, while the rest of the game played like real hockey. I'm tired of messing with sliders to no end trying to get the game to play like real hockey. Yes, I hear people's arguments about "personalization" and all. But, to me, if you want to play arcade hockey, go buy an arcade game like NHL Hitz. If you look at the slider threads here, or at any other sports gaming site, you'll see that the bulk of the discussion is how to adjust the sliders to get the games to play as realistic as possible. Rarely if ever do you see a request by someone who asks, "How do I get the game to play super fast with ridiculously huge hits?"

Enough with the sliders already. Just program the damn game like the real sport. Seriously, how hard can it be to get the physics right? I play other games with physics involved and there aren't any sliders for those? Why do we need the option to alter the laws of physics in sports games? I dunno, I just don't get it.
lol, I promise that ^^ is not an alter ego of mine but nice to see I'm not the only one that felt this way.
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:55 PM   #71
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Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

Quote:
Originally Posted by original6
I don't get the sliders either. There never used to be any sliders back in the day. Now it seems almost every sports game has a bevy of sliders, with little or no explaination to what they actually do. Many times the sliders don't even seem to do anything.
I think most people would agree that a better explanation of the sliders AND sliders that work properly would also help. Some games like the Show have sliders in this year that don't work at all as well as two different slider menus (one in the game and a different set at the main menu). NCAA released sliders that were broken for the cpu and had to be patched. These things shouldn't happen and could be improved.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SloeyEZ
lol, I promise that ^^ is not an alter ego of mine but nice to see I'm not the only one that felt this way.
I would agree that sliders shouldn't be necessary for a text/sim based game like NFL Head Coach which is something you love. A game like that should simply emulate the real game and because it lacks user input (0% stick skills), there is no excuse that it shouldn't. But for actual sports games where user input has a heavy impact on the outcomes, sliders are a great option to ensure everyone is happy. If people don't like sliders, just don't use them. Pretty simple.
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Old 10-24-2008, 03:54 PM   #72
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Re: Sliders: I Don't Get It

Quote:
Originally Posted by original6
Just program the damn game like the real sport. Seriously, how hard can it be to get the physics right? I play other games with physics involved and there aren't any sliders for those? Why do we need the option to alter the laws of physics in sports games? I dunno, I just don't get it.
Games in general are just starting to get real physics engines so you are right about this. However, the real hurdle to fully realistic gameplay is AI. Your theory of making games totally realistic with AI that just gets smarter is indeed what these guys should strive for.

However, AI is insanely complex in team sports games and I don't think we've reached a point where totally realistic AI can even be programmed, much less handled by today's systems. While the PS3 and 360 have considerably more power than their predecesors and that helps with graphics, their added power is a drop in a bucket when compared to what would be needed for truely realistic and sophisticated AI.
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