Complimentary pitches?

[Jimplication]

It's always been a goal of mine to create a pitcher in a baseball video game that had an arsenal of pitches that were both fun to throw, and effective at keeping the batter off guard.

With the superb implementation of Success Mode and the ability to feature created players in Season, this has become a reality, and I am now wondering what pitches you all would consider to best compliment one another, and be worthwhile to feature as a starting pitcher.

In a sense, I'd like to achieve what Mariano Rivera has, but with different pitches and likely a starting pitcher.

The combo that stands out for me is simple.. A fastball and something offspeed; perhaps with movement, but that might give away the pitch immediately.

I was actually discussing this exact topic earlier with a friend (I'm a cool hipster as you can tell) and he thought a fastball / forkball combination would be great; though he felt his own best in reality was fastball/curveball.

I thought this thread might be a nice place to throw around suggestions in regards to what pitch combinations one might want to consider for their created player; but the discussion certainly doesn't have to be limited to MLB Power Pros. What is effective in reality is also likely to work well in game.

Initially I had assumed it would only be two pitches, as that best displays the contrast between types (and doesn't get overly complicated), but if you want to include more than two, I suppose that's fine as well.

You have the ability to create a dominating starting pitcher that throws a few pitches very well, that ultimately keeps batters off balance and strikes them out. What pitches do you choose, and why?

[CMH]

Re: Complimentary pitches?

I pitch in a semi-pro league and I'll tell you right now, fastball/change-up is the best combo a pitcher could have.

If the changeup dives down and in then it's even nastier (there are difference changeups in Power Pros. Not sure which qualifies as that type of changeup)

A third quality pitch would be a slider. I feel that the type that a Joba Chamberlain or Francisco Rodriguez throw are the best. They sort of look like curveballs but with less arc and more bite.

Those are the only pitches I use in real life and I've done exceptionally well with them.

[Blzer]

Re: Complimentary pitches?

I pitch in a semi-pro league and I'll tell you right now, fastball/change-up is the best combo a pitcher could have.

If the changeup dives down and in then it's even nastier (there are difference changeups in Power Pros. Not sure which qualifies as that type of changeup)

A third quality pitch would be a slider. I feel that the type that a Joba Chamberlain or Francisco Rodriguez throw are the best. They sort of look like curveballs but with less arc and more bite.

Those are the only pitches I use in real life and I've done exceptionally well with them.

A third quality pitch is a slider if you throw an effective two-seam fastball. If not, there are better third quality pitches out there. IMO a curveball is probably needed for every pitcher. They aren't fantastic pitches by any means, unless you really can add some zip to it like Felix Hernandez. But it's a good pitch to work hitters backwards with. When you get older, it's not as much of a strikeout pitch, but is more of a get-it-in pitch. However, you should make sure you get a biting changeup with a curveball, otherwise you might have pitches that become mistake hangers to the batter.


I've never learned a good splitter, but if you're talking relief work, a splitter is a great low pitch if you have a hard four-seam fastball.

[CMH]

Re: Complimentary pitches?

Yea, that's why I said the sliders that move similar to curves.

I don't mean the sliders that have cutter-like action.

Usually when I think curve I think big 12-6 drop. That's nice too but I think breaking balls with 2-8/3-7 drops are nastier especially if they come in just a tad slower than your fastball.

Anyway, it's all about how you use your pitches.

[Blzer]

Re: Complimentary pitches?

Yea, that's why I said the sliders that move similar to curves.

I don't mean the sliders that have cutter-like action.

Yeah, normally I'll give that pitch name the "slurve". Sliders are actually fastballs... have speed like a fastball, and are thrown like a fastball. Just different grip and finger pressure. I don't know for the life of me how pitchers throw that slider that basically shoots straight down instead of going over.

Usually when I think curve I think big 12-6 drop. That's nice too but I think breaking balls with 2-8/3-7 drops are nastier especially if they come in just a tad slower than your fastball.

Anyway, it's all about how you use your pitches.

Depends on the pitcher, really. If you want to throw it like a football and snap downward, you'll get 12-6. If you want a curve not much slower than your fastball, throw it like your fastball. The "tweener" is the most dangerous to throw, because you can really mess up your elbow (this is the one that kids commonly throw), where they have it like they're going to release fastball and then they rotate their wrist inward as they snap. That's probably the most effective, but the worst for your arm FOR SURE.

[CMH]

Re: Complimentary pitches?

As I was typing I was thinking I should call it a slurve. Best way to describe it.

As for the wrist snapping, I agree that it's bad for your arm. I throw my breaking ball by putting pressure on my index finger over one seam. Then I just let the ball roll off the index finger while pushing like a fastball. Depending on the amount of pressure and how much I let the ball roll off it either drops straight down like a 12-6 curve or has late break like a slurve.

Coaches tried teaching me that wrist snapping curveball when I was in high school and I wasn't a fan. I didn't like the amount of pressure I put on my arm doing it. It just felt too awkward.

[ComfortablyLomb]

Re: Complimentary pitches?

In terms of complimentary pitches, the rule of thumb is basically anything is complimentary so long as it gives the batter a different look off the fastball. Either because its breaks a bit and has to be guarded against or is just flat out a different speed.

Just look at the way Joba Chamberlin has been using his fastball and slider. They're obviously great pitches on their own but he pumps that fastball inside and outside and then throws the slider away so batters chase thinking it's the fastball. He's not really changing speeds much either, the fastball comes in at 95-96 (or 109 on the TBS gun) and the slider comes in at 87-88. If you remember Matt Clement he was basically the archtypical fastball inside (he had a good 2-seamer too) and slider away guy. The same applies to guys who throw a fastball/splitter combo like Schilling or Papelbon. Pump the fastball up high and throw the splitter low.

Or you could be a softer thrower and try to pitch to (poor) contact. Throw a sinker or two seamer and mix it with a slider as was mentioned above.

As for the changeup as a second pitch, lots of pitchers use it as their out pitch but I'm struggling to think of one decent pitcher who has a great change that doesn't have some sort of breaking ball that they mix in occasionally as well.

Basically, answering the original question these are the basic combinations:

Fastball - Slider
Fastball - Splitter
Fastball - Curve
Fastball - Change - Any Breaking Ball
Sinker/2-seamer - Slider

Unless you're Javier Lopez you don't need three types of slider either. If you want to talk about uncomplementary pitches, something like fastball - slider - slurve wouldn't make too much sense. Not unless you have very different actions on them. Neither would fastball - change - circle change.

[Blzer]

Re: Complimentary pitches?

Fastball - Curve

Here's my only objection. If you want this, you need a changeup as well to be anywhere near dominant. The rest sounds good.

[CMH]

Re: Complimentary pitches?

One guy I can think of that doesn't really use anything but his fastball and changeup is Trevor Hoffman.

Ok, so maybe last week wasn't a good outing for him but he's been flat out scary his entire career.

Cole Hamels could also fit into this description though he does have other pitches he uses and it's still too early to say he'll be this good for a long time.

Almost forgot Brad Radke. Mr. Consistent in my book.

[ComfortablyLomb]

Re: Complimentary pitches?

Here's my only objection. If you want this, you need a changeup as well to be anywhere near dominant. The rest sounds good.

Off the top of my head I think Josh Beckett would disagree and so would Tom Gordon. I mean, Beckett has a change but it's basically what could be considered a BP fastball (kind of like when Carpenter randomly throws his fastball in the low 80s) since it's 87-88 with little movement compared to his 94-95 mph fastball. Both of them throw fastball/curve the vast majority of the time.

What I'm really saying is that to pitch in the big leagues you must have more than two pitches even if the third is junk that you throw a handful of times a game. If you're only throwing two pitches then you're likely not starting but relieving. That is unless you're a freak like RJ who could get by on an otherworldly fastball and slider and even he started experimenting with more pitches like a splitter/forkball as his physical talent started to erode.

It's kind of like, which is better? Having two plus pitches and nothing else or one plus pitch and two average ones? If you're a starter I think having the three will take you further as you'll have to get the same guys out three times a game.

[JoeMimic]

Re: Complimentary pitches?

I say the best combo anyone has ever had was Rick "Wild Thing" Vaughn's Terminator his Eliminator and his Humilator.... LOL

[ComfortablyLomb]

Re: Complimentary pitches?

One guy I can think of that doesn't really use anything but his fastball and changeup is Trevor Hoffman.

Ok, so maybe last week wasn't a good outing for him but he's been flat out scary his entire career.

Cole Hamels could also fit into this description though he does have other pitches he uses and it's still too early to say he'll be this good for a long time.

Almost forgot Brad Radke. Mr. Consistent in my book.

Hoffman is almost all speed changes. Keith Foulke was the same way. Both of these guys have a third pitch though, even now Hoffman mixes in a slider/cutter from time to time and Foulke did the same thing.

Radke threw some breaking pitches as well. He kind of got into this thing toward the end of his career where he would just spot his fastball and change speeds but he did have a slider and curve. One heck of an underrated and consistent pitcher too, he was kind of like the Tim Wakefield of the Twins. You could count on him for 200 innings and a 4.00 ERA.

[Blzer]

Re: Complimentary pitches?

Off the top of my head I think Josh Beckett would disagree and so would Tom Gordon. I mean, Beckett has a change but it's basically what could be considered a BP fastball (kind of like when Carpenter randomly throws his fastball in the low 80s) since it's 87-88 with little movement compared to his 94-95 mph fastball. Both of them throw fastball/curve the vast majority of the time.

As long as he has that changeup, and as long as his curveball isn't the same speed as his fastball.

What I'm really saying is that to pitch in the big leagues you must have more than two pitches even if the third is junk that you throw a handful of times a game. If you're only throwing two pitches then you're likely not starting but relieving. That is unless you're a freak like RJ who could get by on an otherworldly fastball and slider and even he started experimenting with more pitches like a splitter/forkball as his physical talent started to erode.

Mmm, touché.

It's kind of like, which is better? Having two plus pitches and nothing else or one plus pitch and two average ones? If you're a starter I think having the three will take you further as you'll have to get the same guys out three times a game.

I'm just saying that the curveball (the standard curveball) isn't enough of a second pitch to complement a fastball. Reason? They are two completely different pitches... thus making the curveball predictable. The reason why a curveball can be a hanger and technically not a fastball (especially righty-righty or lefty-lefty) is because the greatest force that can be supplied to a ball is when it's brought back directly where it came from.

By that, I mean... when a curveball comes back over the plate to a righty, it has that downward action and coming to his "right". So when he hits a home run down the left field line, he got more force in his hit because it came "in from left field" in a way when it was coming into him. That's the same reason you won't get as much power pulling a fastball as you will hitting it to dead-center, and that's why the outfield walls are made the way they are (shorter down the lines).



Anyway, What I'm saying is that you need to have at least one more offspeed pitch, even if it's a straight changeup, to at least make the hitter think. Even if you throw it once in the game, at least you make the hitter have some reason to doubt that one pitch might not be coming. Professional hitters are smart, and they pick up speeds pretty quickly, and normally when they know a pitcher well enough, they can guess what pitch is coming based on the speed. So, if a pitcher has a fastball and curveball, he'll know when a curveball is coming by its speed. But if he has a changeup, even if it's straight as an arrow, one pitch can begin right down the middle as a curveball and sweep the plate as the guy chases, then the next pitch can appear to come down the middle only for it to continue down the middle for a taken strike three because the hitter assumed curveball.


All I'm saying is that you still need that other pitch.