Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

**mvpstax** · 09-14-2022, 02:00 PM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

Rosters work cross-platform?

**XxKnicksRules215xX** · 09-14-2022, 04:04 PM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

Finally, I am very much looking forward to these rosters.

**atlwarya** · 09-15-2022, 09:07 PM

Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

I’m about to spend a lot of hours on 2k this year.

Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

**Real2KInsider** · 09-17-2022, 02:41 PM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

BADGE OBSERVATION
I have been saying for a few years now that the team they have doing the Modern Era is ill-equipped for the job. Here's one more data point. 2K's badges are way pretty barebones in the Modern Era compared to the other Era Rosters.

The Kobe Era (2003) - Badges
Cleveland Cavaliers (17-65 record)
28 Ricky Davis
17 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
10 Darius Miles: 9.7 PER, 44 TS%, 19 USG%, 2008 mins
8 Carlos Boozer
7 Tyrone Hill
6 Jumaine Jones
5 Bimbo Coles: 6.7 PER, 41 TS%, 14 USG%, 691 mins
4 Milt Palacio: 8.2 PER, 47 TS%, 12 USG%, 1976 mins
2 DeSagana Diop
1 Smush Parker
4 Generic A
4 Generic B
8 Generic C
104 Total

The 03 Cavs were a heinous team that tanked their way to LeBron. Miles & Palacio in particular were actively negative assets. The team responsible for this content still found time to give them various badges highlighting the few strengths they did have. Cool.

The Modern Era (2022) - Badges
Philadelphia 76ers (51-31 Record)
31 James Harden
28 Joel Embiid
15 Tyrese Maxey
14 Montrezl Harrell
12 Matisse Thybulle
11 Tobias Harris
10 P.J. Tucker
3 De'Anthony Melton: 15.2 PER, 53 TS%, 21 USG%, 1657 mins
2 Georges Niang: 10.7 PER, 59 TS%, 17 USG%, 1736 mins
2 Paul Reed
1 Furkan Korkmaz: 10.2 PER, 50 TS%, 18 USG%, 1414 mins
1 Charles Bassey
0 Danuel House: 10.6 PER, 56 TS%, 15 USG%, 727 mins
0 Shake Milton: 11.9 PER, 52 TS%, 18 USG%, 1179 mins
0 Jaden Springer
0 Isaiah Joe
0 Charlie Brown Jr
0 Julian Champagnie
0 Trevelin Queen
130 Total

121 Badges are tied up in the top 7 players on the team. This is basically true of every team in the league. Unlike the Kobe era, whoever did the Modern Era straight up couldn't be bothered with the NBA's middle class.

De'Anthony Melton, who was the 6th man on a 56-win team, went from 8 badges to 3 in 2K23. He is obviously held in much higher regard than Palacio or a 35-year old Coles were. Yet not by 2K Sports.

Melton's Badges
Finishing (0): None
Shooting (0): None
Playmaking (1): Break Starter (B)
Defense (2): Glove (S), Interceptor (B)

Melton was SECOND in the NBA in Steal rate (3.0 STL%, which is his career average).
He was among the best rebounding guards in the NBA (4 ORB%, 17 DRB%).
He hit 139 threes (65th) last year on 37% shooting (69th). Not that they have shooting badges but Bimbo + Milt combined for 15-67 (22%)
He dunked 22 times in a variety of situations (Posters, Putbacks). Bimbo + Milt totaled 16 dunks in their CAREERS (16,629 mins).

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/U4b-_XeYcjk" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

We can break down the other backups and come to similar conclusions.

This is my roundabout way of saying that even with badge scales reduced it's clear that not enough attention was paid to the middle class. I could have just pointed to Harrison Barnes (0 badges) but a team-wide analysis is necessary to illustrate that these aren't isolated-individual cases.

Thus, expect badge counts to INCREASE in my roster for the mid/lower class based on the precedent set forth by 2K Sports in their other related content.

**bjb** · 09-20-2022, 09:56 AM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

Hey dude, love your work. Had two quick questions for you:

1. Do we know what tendencies actually do? Or has 2K ever explained this? I do tend to edit these each year. The way I have rationalized these, is that it's the (in-game) AI's % of actually taking a shot or shooting the ball, and/or making a move (i.e. drive) per player. Whether they truly impact the simulation stats or not, I'm really unclear, but curious if you've done any analysis regarding these?

2. Do you plan to edit/update equipment in your roster? One thing that is kind of a pet peeve of mine is shorts length. It feels like the default should be 8 for all players, instead of 10 (10 reminds me of like circa-early 2000's fashion - And 1 mixtape-ish)

**Real2KInsider** · 09-20-2022, 02:06 PM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

Originally posted by bjb

Hey dude, love your work. Had two quick questions for you:

1. Do we know what tendencies actually do? Or has 2K ever explained this? I do tend to edit these each year.

I can tell you what most of them do. 2K has never explained them because they're incapable of doing so.

Pete Toal (pjt8405 on here) goes pretty in-depth on them here.
https://forums.operationsports.com/pjt8405/

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/jvkbzrzlmeE" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The way I have rationalized these, is that it's the (in-game) AI's % of actually taking a shot or shooting the ball, and/or making a move (i.e. drive) per player. Whether they truly impact the simulation stats or not, I'm really unclear, but curious if you've done any analysis regarding these?

Some of them affect sim stats, but most of them don't.
Some of them work as a percentage, but most of them don't.

It would be more accurate to think of them as values (or a score) that gets added to game code running in the background. Tendencies help steer the car but they don't replace the engine.

There are plenty of instances where gameplay overrides tendencies. Perhaps the most prominent example, a zero 3pt tendency doesn't mean a player will commit a shot clock violation rather than put up a three.

You can also give a player 100 3pt tendency but that doesn't mean they are going to be jacking up shots if they're never in position to do so.

2. Do you plan to edit/update equipment in your roster? One thing that is kind of a pet peeve of mine is shorts length. It feels like the default should be 8 for all players, instead of 10 (10 reminds me of like circa-early 2000's fashion - And 1 mixtape-ish)

I don't pay much attention to player appearances, as I spend about 99.9% of my 2K time managing the roster & expanding upon my NBA knowledge & philosophies.

**Real2KInsider** · 09-20-2022, 02:36 PM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

Sixers Badges Updated
191 Total (+61)
33 Embiid (+5)
33 Harden (+2)
19 Maxey (+4)
18 Melton (+15)
15 Harrell (+1)
13 Harris (+2)
11 Tucker (+1)
8 Milton (+8)
7 Korkmaz (+6)
7 Joe (+7)
6 Reed (+4)
3 Niang (+1)
2 House (+2)
2 Bassey (+1)
1 Brown (+1)
1 Queen (NC)
0 Springer (NC)
0 Champagnie (NC)

I was very conservative in my application, more in line with 2K's updated philosophy.

The area where I found "difficulty" being conservative was the Shooting badges.
This is because I've done extensive data work here, and 2K has not.

Agent Three: 8 players (1 HOF, 1 Silver, 6 Bronze)
Catch & Shoot: 8 players (1 Gold, 2 Silver, 5 Bronze)
Corner Specialist: 8 players (1 Gold, 2 Silver, 5 Bronze)
Slippery Off-Ball: 8 players (2 Silver, 6 Bronze)

Even though Isaiah Joe is a low rated player, there are still a number of things he does that separate him from a stationary spot-up shooter like a Danuel House.

Isaiah Joe per 36
5.6 Spotups
2.0 Off-Screen/Handoff
1.2 Contested Threes
1.2 Midrange Off-Dribble
1.0 3pt Off-Dribble
0.8 Stepbacks

Danuel House
5.8 Spotups
0.0 Off-Screen/Handoff
0.2 Contested Threes
0.7 Midrange Off-Dribble
0.6 3pt Off-Dribble
0.4 Stepbacks

--------------------------------------

The biggest individual change was De'Anthony Melton. Based on my previous post, I am obviously much higher on him than 2K is. He's a better version of what the team got from Milton, Korkmaz, and Thybulle to an extent.

5.7 Spotups (3rd on MEM)
2.1 Off-Screen/Handoff (4th on MEM)
0.8 Contested Threes (2nd on MEM)
1.1 Midrange Off-Dribble (4th on MEM)
1.8 3pt Off-Dribble (3rd on MEM)
0.9 Stepbacks (3rd on MEM)

He does a number of things well. It's pretty dumb that he has zero shooting badges.

---------------------------------------

In the case of players like Reed, Bassey, and Queen I opted not to give them many (or lower quality) badges due to their low minute totals. That could change based either on an increased sample or continued "specialist" excellence.

**Real2KInsider** · 09-21-2022, 12:03 PM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

Working on Consistency Ratings today.

My first observation is that 2K has ramped up Offensive Consistency
Average starter:
PG: 85
SG: 85
SF: 85
PF: 76
C: 76

In years past the average was 70 (and what I based my scale around). 2K has changed their philosophy so that they are just maxing out every player and not really using the full range.

Sixers Offensive Consistency (2K Sports)
98 Embiid
98 Harden
98 Maxey
95 Melton
90 Harris
75 Korkmaz
75 Milton
75 House
65 Niang
60 Reed
55 Tucker
50 Joe
45 Springer
45 Brown
40 Thybulle
40 Queen
40 Champagnie
35 Bassey
30 Harrell

Good grief. 4 of 5 Sixers starters are 90+. They were the #12 offense last season.
Maxey having the same consistency rating as Embiid/Harden is unfounded and fluff to pad his rating.
30 for an offense-only former 6th man winner who posted a career-high 68 TS%. Ok.

I came up with a formula last season using BPM (Box Plus Minus) to calculate Offensive Consistency. Since 2K was using 70 as their Mean, I based it on a 40-99 range. 2K uses a 30-99 range so my floor is a little higher (which makes it all the more bizarre that their average is so high).

If you are unfamiliar w/ BPM, 0.0 = Average

Sixers Offensive Consistency (Real 2K Rosters)
99 Embiid (+1): 7.2 OBPM
99 Harden (+1): 3.7 OBPM
99 Harrell (+69): 3.7 OBPM
85 Maxey (-13): 1.3 OBPM
75 Harris (-15): 0.6 OBPM
75 Melton (-20): 0.3 OBPM
60 Tucker (+5): -0.8 OBPM
60 Niang (-10): -0.8 OBPM
55 House (-20): -1.3 OBPM
55 Milton (-20): -1.6 OBPM
50 Korkmaz (-25): -2.0 OBPM
50 Thybulle (+10): -2.2 OBPM
40 Joe (-10): -3.1 OBPM

I think this does a great job encapsulating the Sixers. Their top 4 players (Embiid, Harden, Maxey, Harris) were consistent, and they had no idea what they were getting from the role players on any given night (the majority of whom had down years, like Kork & Shake).

Joel Embiid clearly breaks the attribute scale (should have 120 Offensive Consistency) so there isn't any way to fairly measure him without breaking the rest of the league. My scale at least offers some separation from Tyrese Maxey, whereas 2K is weighting them equally.

I love Montrezl Harrell getting maxed out (how TF was he 30?). We know Harrell as an offense-only player with 6th man caliber impact (at least in the regular season). His addition is a major sleeper for a Sixers team that had Andre Drummond (-1.2), DeAndre Jordan (-1.6), and Paul Millsap (-4.1) mucking things up when Embiid left the floor.

One other thing you should pick up on is that the vast majority of NBA players are sub-par offensively. Only 6 players register as "average" or better. This is because the league is so star driven nowadays (Embiid won't be the only superstar breaking the scale). Even though we docked a bunch of players, the best players (starters) are still primarily the top rated (above average) players. Keep all this in mind when we get to Defensive Consistency.

Filtering out the players w/ low samples:
75 Queen (+35) - 2.7 OBPM in 74 mins
65 Bassey (+30): -0.4 BPM in 168 mins (slightly below average)
60 Reed (NC): -0.8 OBPM in 302 mins
45 Springer (NC): 8.3 OBPM in 6 mins
40 Brown (-5): -5.2 OBPM in 177 mins
40 Champagnie (NC): Rookie

-Queen is docked 20 points to account for his limited sample. It should shock no one if Queen (the GLG MVP) is legitimately a better offensive player than all of last year's Philly bench. I could totally get behind a slightly lower rating of 65-70 which would still accomplish that..

-Bassey and Reed were slightly higher than players like Andre Drummond & DeAndre Jordan from last season. You could make an argument for docking them 10 points to be in line with those guys, or just leaving them as-is.

-Springer is obviously rated more on his 800 GLG mins

-Brown (Career -5.7 OBPM) has been so bad at the NBA level (40 TS%) you can justify breaking my scale and 25-ing him. He's a legit 25 by the numbers. He's the Anti-Embiid.

-Champagnie had a 51 TS% in college and went undrafted.

Next up, Defensive Consistency!

**Real2KInsider** · 09-21-2022, 02:22 PM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

Defensive Consistency

2K23 Position Average
PG: 66
SG: 66
SF: 71
PF: 66
C: 71

Right off the bat, these are much lower than Offensive Consistency. SFs and Cs clearly got a slight boost here. When we combine Off/Def, PFs are getting the shaft across the board.

Sixers Defensive Consistency (2K Sports)
95 Embiid
90 Thybulle
80 Tucker
75 Melton
65 Harden
65 Maxey
60 Harris
60 Springer
60 Bassey
55 House (one of better defenders on UTA)
55 Joe
50 Harrell
45 Korkmaz
40 Milton
40 Niang
40 Reed (Career 4.4 STL%, 5.1 BLK%)
40 Queen
40 Champagnie
35 Brown

What should stick out is that 2K had no issue maxing out Tyrese Maxey and giving De'Anthony Melton a 95, but they were considerably more stingy on the defensive end. Only four players sport 70+ Defensive Consistency, which is as many as 2K had in the 90s on Offense.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, six players had 40 or worse.

As with OCon, I used DBPM to come up with an attribute scale.

Sixers Defensive Consistency (Real 2K Rosters)
99 Thybulle (+9): 3.3 DBPM
90 Embiid (-5): 2.0 DBPM
85 Melton (+10): 1.6 DBPM
85 Tucker (+5): 1.4 DBPM
75 Harden (+10): 0.3 DBPM
70 House (+15): 0.2 DBPM
70 Harrell (+20): 0.1 DBPM
65 Harris (+5): -0.6 DBPM
65 Milton (+25): -0.6 DBPM
65 Maxey (NC): -0.7 DBPM
60 Korkmaz (+15): -1.1 DBPM
60 Niang (+20): -1.1 DBPM
55 Joe (NC): -1.5 DBPM

The biggest difference between OBPM and DBPM is the ranges are much tighter. The floor is higher. The vast majority of players are low impact. Going from James Harden or even Tyrese Maxey to Shake Milton makes minimal difference on the defensive end. It's the offensive end where these differences are really felt.

2K's philosophy is just tanking bench players but what the data is telling us is that when the starters sit out, it's not the defensive end where teams are suffering.

Filtering out the players w/ low samples:
80 Reed (+40): 2.9 DBPM in 302 mins
70 Bassey (+10): 2.0 DBPM in 168 mins
70 Brown (+35): -0.1 DBPM in 177 mins
65 Springer (+5): 8.7 DBPM in 6 mins
60 Queen (+20): -0.8 DBPM in 74 mins
50 Champagnie (+10): Rookie

One thing this is telling us is bigs will rate higher due to their box score data. They obviously like Reed (5.5 STL%, 4.1 BLK%) and Bassey's (9.1 BLK%) historic rates quite a bit. Those figures wouldn't hold up under a larger / more competitive sample and it's totally fine to dock them 20 points as I did. Only an idiot would think Paul Reed is one of the worst defensive players in the NBA.

Brown registers as a league average defensive player. This is why he's gotten chances at the NBA level. If his historically putrid offense comes around, he's an NBA contributor.

Hopefully this provides some clarity on my Consistency ratings, which will be updated in the roster based on the data work.

**Real2KInsider** · 09-21-2022, 03:19 PM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

BPM / Consistency across an entire position.

Starting Point Guards (Off-Def) - Sorted by R2K Offensive Consistency
Trae Young: 140-50
Ja Morant: 130-70
Stephen Curry: 125-75
Kyrie Irving: 110-60
LaMelo Ball: 105-75
Darius Garland: 105-60
Damian Lillard: 105-45
Chris Paul: 100-90
Jrue Holiday: 100-75
Fred VanVleet: 100-75
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander: 100-75
CJ McCollum: 100-55
Mike Conley: 95-75
Tyrese Haliburton: 95-70
Jamal Murray: 95-65
D'Angelo Russell: 90-55
Tyrese Maxey: 85-65
Lonzo Ball: 80-85
Kyle Lowry: 80-75
Jalen Brunson: 80-70
Spencer Dinwiddie: 80-65
Monte Morris: 80-60
De'Aaron Fox: 75-60
John Wall: 70-60
Kevin Porter: 70-55
Tre Jones: 70-70
Russell Westbrook: 65-60
Cole Anthony: 65-60
Marcus Smart: 60-85
Jaden Ivey: Rookie

2655 Offense + 1940 Defense / 29 starters = 92 Offense, 67 Defense

Point Guards are limited in how they can impact a game defensively and thus have the lowest DCon in the league. Only three starting PGs in my system recorded 80+ Defensive Consistency (1.0 DBPM).

12 players are high impact Offensive players. 7 of them broke the scale, but only 3 of them in a meaningful way (and this is where Floor General gets to carry it's weight in gold)

Given that BPM isn't weighing positions (it's the average relative to all NBA players) what I love about it is that Centers will naturally be the inverse of this. You don't need to arbitrarily tank them as 2K does. They will have lower OCon, higher DCon.

Given that 70 (0.0 BPM) is the average NBA player:
A starting Point Guard is +22 Offensive Consistency and -3 Defensive Consistency

For example, that means Monte Morris is above average offensively FOR AN NBA PLAYER, one of the better offensive players on his team, but is still below average for his position and not an elite player.

This also FAIRLY contextualizes the how & why Russell Westbrook was so awful last season (-27 from an average starter). He was considerably worse than his peers, but isn't worst player in the NBA level bad. He ain't Stanley Johnson, Talen Horton-Tucker, Wenyen Gabriel, Avery Bradley, Kent Bazemore, etc. There isn't a need to farcically rate him a 40.

Hopefully you enjoyed this partial breakdown of why the 2K Roster team sucks. I couldn't believe how simple & effective this was to come up with. Meanwhile these dudes are out here playing blindfolded darts ****ing around with Intangibles for the last 4 years.

Enjoy the gift 2K now that it's in public domain.

**Real2KInsider** · 09-22-2022, 07:28 PM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

I personally use FTR (FT attempt Rate - FTA per FGA) to calculate Draw Foul. 2K Sports doesn't. They're throwing darts.

Sixers Draw Foul Rating (2K Sports)
97 Embiid: 0.602 (Combined with his volume - Shaq tier).
94 Harden: 0.540 (This was 0.650 with the Sixers. His career high is 0.592. The GOAT SG)
88 Maxey: 0.247 (Lmao what)

Maxey is within 10 points of two of the most historic foul drawing players in NBA history. As per usual the 2K roster dunces have no concept of scope or scale.

79 Harrell: 0.533
75 Melton: 0.173
73 Harris: 0.198
69 Korkmaz: 0.179
66 Queen: 0.121 (74 mins)
63 Milton: 0.181
58 House: 0.293
57 Reed: 0.146 (302 mins)
55 Springer: 0.000 (6 mins)
51 Niang: 0.105 (lowest rate on team)
45 Joe: 0.175
42 Brown: 0.256 (177 mins)
41 Champagnie (Rookie)
40 Bassey: 0.255 (168 mins)
36 Tucker: 0.143
25 Thybulle: 0.143 (make it make sense)

I don't have many specific notes about the individual players here. Harrell (and most Centers) are going to post higher rates because they're getting more of their FGA at the rim. The rest of the guys under 20% are primarily jumpshooters, and thus generate fewer FTs.

Adjusting for scale...

Sixers Draw Foul Rating (Real 2K Rosters)
99 (+2) Embiid: 0.602
99 (+5) Harden: 0.540
99 (+20) Harrell: 0.533
70 (+12) House: 0.293
60 (-28) Maxey: 0.247
50 (-23) Harris: 0.198
50 (-13) Milton (-13): 0.181
45 (-14) Korkmaz (-19): 0.179
45 (-30) Melton: 0.173
45 (NC) Joe (NC): 0.175
40 (+4) Tucker: 0.143
40 (+15) Thybulle: 0.143
35 (-16) Niang: 0.105

This illustrates just how all over the place 2K is with this attribute. Even if they’re using a different stat/source, there’s simply no way it’s leading to this drastic a difference in results.

Low sample guys
60 (+18) Brown: 0.256 (177 mins) - Career: 0.248
55 (+15) Bassey: 0.255 (168 mins) - Approx 0.170 in the GLG
55 (NC) Springer: 0.000 (6 mins) - Approx 0.280 in the GLG. 2021 NCAA = 0.441
45 (+4) Champagnie: 0.213 in NCAA
40 (-17) Reed: 0.146 (302 mins) - Career: 0.126
35 (-31) Queen: 0.121 (74 mins) - Approx 0.150 in the GLG

Contrasting 2K’s rating with FTA/36 (which isn’t filtering Usage)
97 Embiid: 12.6
94 Harden: 8.5
88 Maxey: 3.3
79 Harrell: 6.5
75 Melton: 2.6
73 Harris: 2.9
69 Korkmaz: 2.1
66 Queen: 1.9 (74 mins)
63 Milton: 2.2
58 House: 2.9
57 Reed: 1.7 (302 mins)
55 Springer: 0.0 (6 mins)
51 Niang: 1.2
45 Joe: 1.8
42 Brown: 2.0 (177 mins)
41 Champagnie (Rookie)
40 Bassey: 2.6 (168 mins)
36 Tucker: 1.1
25 Thybulle: 0.9

So yeah, who the **** knows. I came up with my formula because 2K is clearly arbitrary. Again it should be noted that the present roster editor has held the job for 8-9 years now.

**ojandpizza** · 09-22-2022, 10:52 PM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

Regarding your positions thing it’s a shame 2K can’t make a workout around non-user controlled teams to be “smart” enough for two players to be on the floor regardless of listed position. Some guys aren’t really suited for position changes, Murray/Trae neither one are shooting guards by skill set, play-style, anything other than they will both start. Was an issue with guys like Bron and KD in the past. Neither have ever been a “power forward” at any given time but obviously slot down in some rotations given who they are on the floor with. Both have always been high volume wings, Bron even playing “point guard” probably more than half his possessions regardless of if he’s guarding a power-forward on the other end.

Basketball-reference struggles with this as well. Those years with Miami where Bron is like 80% of the time power-forward while sharing the floor with Shane Battier is a complete joke for anybody who watched those teams play. Battier defended most 4’s and stood in corners as a stretch 4 in nearly every game. Bron defended mostly wings, was a wing scorer, played some point, even defended dudes like Tony Parker and Derrick Rose in playoff games.

Guarantee Ben Simmons will be the same this year. He’ll defend forwards but likely be their primary play-maker like Harden was. That example isn’t as good, he can be a point-forward for them and not be listed at PG, but he’s still a PG by ability/role/style just playing defense elsewhere and starting next to another PG.

I guess ultimately it doesn’t really matter. But most guys ratings are suited to benefit them the most at their listed positions. Not shuffle them around based on who they defend and who 2K will start/bench.

**Real2KInsider** · 09-23-2022, 01:36 AM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

Originally posted by ojandpizza

Regarding your positions thing it’s a shame 2K can’t make a workout around non-user controlled teams to be “smart” enough for two players to be on the floor regardless of listed position. Some guys aren’t really suited for position changes, Murray/Trae neither one are shooting guards by skill set, play-style, anything other than they will both start.

This will be covered in a Hawks outlook video (already did the research & outline) but one of Trae/Murray absolutely will need to drastically change their playstyle in order to function together. In fact, it is literally IMPOSSIBLE for them to replicate last season's production if they are both starting.
If they are both "Point Guards" it will be a disaster - especially considering Kevin Huerter is the player Murray is replacing.

IMO this is likely a situation similar to when the Warriors picked up D'Angelo Russell in the Kevin Durant sign & trade. The team got the cap hold / salary slot on an "All-Star" level player and they were able to move him later for Andrew Wiggins, who was a much better fit.

Was an issue with guys like Bron and KD in the past. Neither have ever been a “power forward” at any given time but obviously slot down in some rotations given who they are on the floor with. Both have always been high volume wings, Bron even playing “point guard” probably more than half his possessions regardless of if he’s guarding a power-forward on the other end.

Positions are primarily who the player is playing with & guarding, rather than offensive role.

LeBron James was legitimately a PG in 2020 because he was playing next to KCP and Danny Green, not because he lead the league with a career high Assist rate (product, not the cause).
He might have been running the offense in Cleveland or Miami but he was playing with Mo Williams/Daniel Gibson and Mario Chalmers. Ditto for Kobe who had more ball handling responsibility than Derek Fisher, Jordan/Pippen who played with Armstrong/Paxson/Kerr, etc.

Basketball-reference struggles with this as well.

Basketball-Reference simply sorts position by player height. If a taller player was "known" as a PG (Magic Johnson, Ben Simmons, etc) they simply toggle them as a PG and everyone else moves up a position. This creates awkward estimates in lineups where Simmons played the 4 next to T.J. McConnell (i.e. a double PG lineup). This results in Simmons being logged as a SG (since he's a taller PG than McConnell) and then you have 2-guards like J.J. Redick and Jerryd Bayless getting logged as SFs.

Those years with Miami where Bron is like 80% of the time power-forward while sharing the floor with Shane Battier

As stated, LeBron was taller than Battier. BBR only forces PG.
If BBR hard-forced LeBron as a 3 then there are surely lineups where Wade & Ray Allen get logged as PFs.

BBR is pretty clear that positions are "estimates". Which is why I vet my positions w/ lineup data. Doing that you'll figure out that Battier isn't playing much w/ Udonis Haslem (or whomever the PFs were).

Guarantee Ben Simmons will be the same this year. He’ll defend forwards but likely be their primary play-maker like Harden was.

Simmons & Harden have wildly different playstyles (and creation ability), so idk about primary play-maker on a team w/ Kyrie/KD (much as we don't consider Draymond Green a PG on the Warriors),

If BBR keeps both Kyrie/Simmons toggled as PGs, he will be "listed" as a SG on BBR (since he is taller than Kyrie), even though that might make Joe Harris a PF or something.

If they remove the toggle, he'll be a C as the tallest player on the court.

**Real2KInsider** · 09-23-2022, 01:53 AM

Re: Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

Getting into Shooting Ratings now, starting with Driving Layup.

Driving Layup (2k Sports)
92 Harden: 174-345 (50 FG%, 26 AST%, 4.1 FGA36)
89 Maxey: 217-368 (59 FG%, 47 AST%, 4.2 FGA36)
89 Harrell: 153-258 (59 FG%, 63 AST%, 5.6 FGA36)
87 Embiid: 244-382 (64 FG%, 54 AST%, 5.1 FGA36)
84 Milton: 70-120 (58 FG%, 39 AST%, 3.2 FGA36)
83 Melton: 70-142 (49 FG%, 57 AST%, 2.0 FGA36)
80 Harris: 174-300 (58 FG%, 47 AST%, 3.6 FGA36)
78 House: 23-49 (47 FG%, 70 AST%, 2.1 FGA36)
75 Niang: 54-90 (60 FG%, 80 AST%, 1.7 FGA36)
75 Korkmaz: 63-104 (61 FG%, 49 AST%, 2.5 FGA36)
74 Thybulle: 43-83 (52 FG%, 77 AST%, 1.6 FGA36)
69 Joe: 5-13 (39 FG%, 100 AST%, 0.8 FGA36)
55 Tucker: 65-116 (56 FG%, 69 AST%, 1.7 FGA36)

The Low Minutes Players
79 Brown: 6-17 (35 FG%, 50 AST%, 3.5 FGA36)
74 Springer: 0-0 (N/A)
74 Champagnie
70 Queen: 5-7 (71 FG%, 50 AST%, 3.4 FGA36)
70 Bassey: 10-17 (59 FG%, 70 AST%, 3.4 FGA36)
64 Reed: 37-67 (55 FG%, 51 AST%, 5.5 FGA36)

Source: Layup stats on Basketball-Reference (Season + Playoffs).
By listing multiple categories we get a more complete picture of a player’s ability.
FG%: Accuracy
AST%: Shot Difficulty
FGA36: Volume

This is an attribute that for whatever reason, 2K treats arbitrarily like Dunks, rather than based on actual player performance. The 19-20 point difference between P.J. Tucker and Thybulle/Niang should make that crystal clear. The 55 is also precisely what PJ had in 2K22 - it hasn’t been updated in over a year.

It’s a little jarring to pick a starting point so let’s further break these down by Guards, Wings, Bigs and see if we pick up on anything.

Guards
92 Harden: 174-345 (50 FG%, 26 AST%, 4.1 FGA36)
89 Maxey: 217-368 (59 FG%, 47 AST%, 4.2 FGA36)
84 Milton: 70-120 (58 FG%, 39 AST%, 3.2 FGA36)
83 Melton: 70-142 (49 FG%, 57 AST%, 2.0 FGA36)
69 Joe: 5-13 (39 FG%, 100 AST%, 0.8 FGA36)

Harden had some slippage that makes his rating harder to evaluate.
2021 Harden: 138-234 (59 FG%, 14 AST%, 4.4 FGA36)
His FG% tanked hard, but he was still elite in terms of shot difficulty and shot creation.

While Maxey’s accuracy and volume are high, his difficulty isn’t for a PG.

Milton was a better finisher than Melton. Melton is the more athletic finisher (22 dunks to Milton’s 1) but Milton has clearly proven to be much craftier. Naturally, 2K Sports places no separation between their abilities, which would make Melton vastly superior due to his dunking.

Joe is not an NBA caliber finisher by any measure. It makes him a fringe player and this is a major case for him losing his roster spot.

Wings
80 Harris: 174-300 (58 FG%, 47 AST%, 3.6 FGA36)
78 House: 23-49 (47 FG%, 70 AST%, 2.1 FGA36)
75 Niang: 54-90 (60 FG%, 80 AST%, 1.7 FGA36)
75 Korkmaz: 63-104 (61 FG%, 49 AST%, 2.5 FGA36)
74 Thybulle: 43-83 (52 FG%, 77 AST%, 1.6 FGA36)
55 Tucker: 65-116 (56 FG%, 69 AST%, 1.7 FGA36)

Korkmaz and Harris were the two guys creating shots off the bounce. The other players all had 70-80 AST% and lower volume. Harris’ production is pretty comparable to Maxey’s, shouldn’t be lower than Melton.

Tucker/Niang/Thybulle was referenced above. Tucker’s 55 is a blight.
Thybulle’s athleticism (63 dunks) still makes him the vastly superior finisher in a vacuum.

Bigs
89 Harrell: 153-258 (59 FG%, 63 AST%, 5.6 FGA36)
87 Embiid: 244-382 (64 FG%, 54 AST%, 5.1 FGA36)

They have higher ratings than all the wings, though that isn’t usually the case for bigs. These are simply two of the best rim finishers in the NBA.
Embiid should have a higher rating than Harrell and probably the highest rating on the team depending on how we handle Harden.

Of course, no Embiid discussion would be complete w/o some Jokic context.
2022 Jokic: 325-478 (68 FG%, 52 AST%, 6.5 FGA36)

My philosophy:
50 FG% = 70 rating
Use the other factors as tier modifiers.

Driving Layup (Real 2K Rosters)
95 (+8) Embiid: 244-382 (64 FG%, 54 AST%, 5.1 FGA36)
90 (-2) Harden: 174-345 (50 FG%, 26 AST%, 4.1 FGA36)
90 (+1) Maxey: 217-368 (59 FG%, 47 AST%, 4.2 FGA36)
85 (-4) Harrell: 153-258 (59 FG%, 63 AST%, 5.6 FGA36)
85 (+5) Harris: 174-300 (58 FG%, 47 AST%, 3.6 FGA36)
85 (+1) Milton: 70-120 (58 FG%, 39 AST%, 3.2 FGA36)
80 (+5) Korkmaz: 63-104 (61 FG%, 49 AST%, 2.5 FGA36)
75 (-8) Melton: 70-142 (49 FG%, 57 AST%, 2.0 FGA36)
75 (NC) Niang: 54-90 (60 FG%, 80 AST%, 1.7 FGA36)
75 (+20) Tucker: 65-116 (56 FG%, 69 AST%, 1.7 FGA36)
70 (-4) Thybulle: 43-83 (52 FG%, 77 AST%, 1.6 FGA36)
65 (-13) House: 23-49 (47 FG%, 70 AST%, 2.1 FGA36)
60 (-9) Joe: 5-13 (39 FG%, 100 AST%, 0.8 FGA36)

Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

Recommended Videos

Real 2K Rosters - The Modern Era (NBA 2K23)

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment