Need some defensive help

[QuestGAV]

Not looking for trick plays/glitches, just general advice on how to approach play calling vs. the AI. I understand some basic terminology like 4-3/3-4/4-2-5/nickel/dime as well as that Cover 1/2/3 indicate how many defenders are in a deep zone. I have a few questions:

• What do the suffix tags mean (Cloud/Sky/Under/Over/Match)?
  • I assume Cloud/Sky/Over are meant for deeper coverages, but I could be totally wrong.
  • I've seen people suggest both Under and Match for more aggressive coverage, but also seen people say Match needs to be patched. Would you recommend Under for most normal passing downs for now?
  • How do Cover 6/Cover 9 fit into that?
  • Do you feel like one of the zones works better than the others?
  
  
• How often do you mix in man vs. zone?
• How often are you pass blitzing?
  • are you sending 5, 6, 7, 8? It feels like the AI is pretty good hitting a quick slant when I send more than six.
  
  
• If you're running a 3/3/5 Tite or 4/2/5 what plays work best against the run? Certain types of zone or man?
  • I've had some luck 0 blitzing on run downs but obviously that's a big risk.
  • I ran 3/3/5 Tite in my last dynasty but thinking about 4/2/5 for a bit better control of the LOS this time around.
  
  

Any other thoughts on how to run an effective defense? Should probably add that I'm restarting a dynasty with Charlotte this morning so my players are not particularly big, fast, or skilled.

[jdb7623]

Re: Need some defensive help

Not looking for trick plays/glitches, just general advice on how to approach play calling vs. the AI. I understand some basic terminology like 4-3/3-4/4-2-5/nickel/dime as well as that Cover 1/2/3 indicate how many defenders are in a deep zone. I have a few questions:

• What do the suffix tags mean (Cloud/Sky/Under/Over/Match)?
  • I assume Cloud/Sky/Over are meant for deeper coverages, but I could be totally wrong.
  • I've seen people suggest both Under and Match for more aggressive coverage, but also seen people say Match needs to be patched. Would you recommend Under for most normal passing downs for now?
  • How do Cover 6/Cover 9 fit into that?
  • Do you feel like one of the zones works better than the others?
  
  
• How often do you mix in man vs. zone?
• How often are you pass blitzing?
  • are you sending 5, 6, 7, 8? It feels like the AI is pretty good hitting a quick slant when I send more than six.
  
  
• If you're running a 3/3/5 Tite or 4/2/5 what plays work best against the run? Certain types of zone or man?
  • I've had some luck 0 blitzing on run downs but obviously that's a big risk.
  • I ran 3/3/5 Tite in my last dynasty but thinking about 4/2/5 for a bit better control of the LOS this time around.
  
  

Any other thoughts on how to run an effective defense? Should probably add that I'm restarting a dynasty with Charlotte this morning so my players are not particularly big, fast, or skilled.

All good questions, but I am by no means an experts. I run a dynasty with 2 teams. 1 is a 3-3-5 the other a 4-2-5. I'll give you my mental checklist.

1. In the play call screen you want to first consider the personel and formation. On 1st down, my first priority is to stop the run which basically means don' get outnumbered. If the formation has a TE in tight, that's 6 blockers, you wouldn't want to run dime. You'd only have 5 defenders and they'd run it up your ***. Go with 3-3-5 or 4-2-5. The variations are not all that important, but you can experiment.

2. Man vs. Zone vs. Match. Match and zone allow your defenders to keep their eyes in the backfield so they react to the run better. In man your defenders will turn an run with the receiver so they don't react well. I run alot of Match on 1st and 2nd down, sometimes zone to mix it up.

3. Cover 2/3/4 refers to home many defenders are deep. Cover 6 and 9 is a hybrid so half the field is In Cover 2 the other half Cover 4. I like Cover 3 buzz because it brings a safety down for run support.

4. I personally don't do alot of blitzing. I save it for my obvious down and distance. On 3rd and short they are likely running and 3rd and long they are likely passing. So you can bring more when you've got more obvious scenarios. I also like to do a zone blitz with 5 or 6 on 2nd and medium. Cpu likes to do more Playstation which takes more time to develop so the blitz usually gets there. I prefer zone blitz because I still have some defenders deep on case the blitz fails.

Anyways. I could write a book, but this should get you started. I don't recommend you play alot of man unless you have some really good corners. Also if they go with 2 TEs you can usually run more man since they don't have a slot. The safeties and LBs can struggle covering the slot guy in man.

[QuestGAV]

Re: Need some defensive help

Appreciate the insight, I'll try to put those thoughts to work in my next couple games. Do you mess with coverage adjustments often or roll with the play you selected unless you get to the line and feel unprepared?

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Need some defensive help

Cover 3 Cloud, Sky, Buzz:
These just dictate who does which responsibility.
Cloud -- two safeties plus a corner play the deep thirds

Sky -- one safety plus two corners play deep thirds

Buzz -- Unlike other cover 3 variants where the FS plays the deep 3rd, in Buzz the FS plays the underneath hook and the SS safety plays the deep middle. This is a good changeup call imo, especially if you have a ball hawking FS. I call this the "Tricky Reed" coverage because it reminds of how Ed Reed would change his coverage responsibilities to be a nightmare for offenses.

Match -- Match rules are hybrid man/zone coverages. Defender responsibilities will be based on reads. It can get fairly complex so be careful with who you are usering in these plays, I tend to user the FS so its easier for me. A good rule of thumb may be that if the closest receiver to a defender has a vertical stem, play man. But thats likely to be wrong so caution is advised.

Under vs Over
I assume you are referring to fronts. Over/under are all about creating favorable matchups on the line. Often the goal is to isolate a guard 1v1 with your best penetrating DT. Imo emphasizing a certain front over the other is contextual, like if one of your DTs is a 300=Lb NT while the other is a 280lb 3 tech. It makes no sense to have your beefy NT aligned in the 3 tech.

Cover 6/Cover 9
These are hybrid cover 2/4 coverages. Basically one half of the field plays cover 4 while the other half plays cover 2. The 6 vs 9 denotes which side is which iirc. Its good vs imbalanced formations when you don't want to make it obvious what your coverage is. And it can be a good call when the offense lines up on one of the hashes.

Fire Zones
Fire zones deserve special mention. They can be your best weapon, but overuse can result in giving up big plays. In short a fire zone is a zone blitz with 3 deep third defenders and 3 underneath defenders. What makes them fun is that for any fire zone the 3 underneath defenders can be different. These are plays with names like "weak blitz 3," "inside cross 3", "SS overload 3." They can be great run blitzes. Against the pass they can be sprinkled in once in a while to keep the QB from getting comfortable.

Man vs Zone
The consensus thus far seems to be prefer zone over man coverage. And avoid the press without safety help. Hopefully this gets remedied in a patch.

The science or art of blitzing
Blitz heavy teams blitz about 25-35% of the time, and of those blitzes 80% of them are 5 man rushes.
6 man blitzes are referred to as "Casino Blitzes" and I'll let you figure out why.

4-2-5 and 3-3-5
Back in the day I use to be a 3-3-5 guy, but then switched to a 4-2-5 with NCAA 14. The aforementioned fire zones work well against the run, and are generally safer than cover 0 casino blitzes. Just don't call the same fire zone plays too often or you will get carved up in the pass.

I'm running my dynasty with a cupcake team rated in the high 60s. For reference when I played FCS West our ratings were evenly matched. I feel like the 4-2-5 and 3-3-5 defenses have been scaled back compared to NCAA 14. There's not as many sets and plays. For guys using lower tier teams like us it is imperative that we sync our scheme with out talent. Look over your roster, who's your best player? Make sure you use a scheme that favors him. It may not be wise to trout out a 5 DB base defense if you don't have good depth at safety and corner. You don't want to bench a 70s LB to play a 66 ovr safety.

Also for the 3 down linemen vs 4, pay attention to their real life scheme on defense. If Charlotte is a real life 3 linemen defense, and you run a 4 linemen scheme, your pass rush is going to be horrific. Rule of thumb, if your DEs are in the 240-270 range thats a 4-3 end. 270 and above he's a 3-4 end or 4-3 DT. Years 1 and probably 2 your talent will need to dictate scheme, but if you want to run a different scheme then recruit for that scheme. Just know that in the transtion years your defense will suffer and will require more micromanagement with formation subs and such

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Need some defensive help

Some additional insight on Cloud vs Sky

Cloud
Pros.
1. Easier to disguise as a 2 high defense. After the snap the coverage "rolls" so less likely to result in guys being out of position when disguising. Because of this alone Cloud coverage is used more in real life at high levels.
2. You're not asking one of your central defenders to race out to defend the flat. If you got a guy that likes throwing to the HB in the flats cloud could snuff that out. You can get many picks against humans who don't expect the corner to be just chilling in the flats

Cons.
1. You like having bubble screens break for big gains? Then Cloud is for you. There are two sides to Cloud coverage -- the "roll" side where the corner races back to defend his deep third, and the flat side where the corner plays the flats. Bubble screens to the roll side will likely go nowhere because you will have the Will backer or equivalent running out to the flat AND the corner retreating to his deep third will still be in the area to snuff it out. But bubbles to the flat side? Those can hurt. You're going to have one corner that has to beat a block and make a tackle. If that corner can't do that the bubble will get at least 6 yards or so before the safety is in position to make a play, unless you have an All-American safety.
2. Related to #1, corners are usually good at coverage, not as good at tackling. By playing a corner at the flats you are asking them to help out in run support. Make sure what you're asking the guy is reasonable.
3. Ideally that flat corner needs to be able to press so he can hold up the WR long enough for the deep safety to get in position. Pressing is broke in this game currently, so cloud coverage is just asking to get abused by fades to the flat side.

(reading this you might think it unbalanced and understandably come to the conclusion that Cloud coverage is horrible, but I cannot overstate how big pro #1 is, it allows you to call Cover 3 from a native two high look, thats HUGE)

Sky
Cover 3 Sky is the "vanilla" cover 3 so when you read pros and cons of Cover 3 in general it usually applies to Sky.

Pro
1. Your SS is in the box and can help out in run support. The prototypical 8 man box while still feeling protected in pass coverage
2. Your corners play deep thirds. Corners are usually better suited to this over flat responsibility (excepting Tampa 2 corners, you weirdos)
3. Its simple.

Cons
1. Easy for a QB to read pre and post snap. A young QBs first read they learn is identifying this coverage
2. Your flat defenders can be beaten to the flats. A quick RB running out to the flats can cause you major problems. This is in contrast to Cloud where a corner is already waiting in one of the flats.
3. Seams. God the seams. You're usually going to have two linebackers responsible for the middle of the field. A pass catching TE is going to be a problem. Bigly. Thats why we like Buzz because it puts a safety in the underneath middle.

In Summary,

Treat Sky as your base cover 3, then switch to Buzz/Cloud to adapt to what the offense is hurting you with. Cloud gets special consideration because its basically a built in cover 3 from a cover 2 look.

There are other weaknesses to each of these that I didn't mention because its common to all cover 3 coverages. For example plays called "Curl Flats" will eat cover 3 all day. Thats how you drive down the length of the field 6-8 yards at a time.

[QuestGAV]

Re: Need some defensive help

Really useful info into how to start thinking about using the strengths of my safeties and corners to dictate coverage calls. My FS is actually slower & stronger than my SS and their coverage skills are similar so getting him up in Buzz and letting the SS handle deeper routes makes a lot of sense. My corners also aren't great tacklers so having the faster guy deep gets them some chance at support. I've got some framework now to look at what I'm seeing on the field, thanks.

[Collegefbfan]

Re: Need some defensive help

Yeah this is super useful. I can’t wait to read more carefully. I will say I have read a few things, and I am by no means an expert either. Come out in Cover 4 but disguise it with Cover 2. The offense sees cover two and think they can attack the middle. I have noticed don’t do it repeatedly, because the CPU adapts of course.

[pietasterp]

Re: Need some defensive help

jbd7623 and ggsimmonds: thank you so much for taking the time to impart some knowledge on us. These are 2 of the most useful posts I've ever read - I'll have to re-read them until I pick up everything you're saying, but I have never seen the difference in the defenses broken down like this before. It really helps to start to de-mystify the playcalls a little bit on defense (!).

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Need some defensive help

Yeah this is super useful. I can’t wait to read more carefully. I will say I have read a few things, and I am by no means an expert either. Come out in Cover 4 but disguise it with Cover 2. The offense sees cover two and think they can attack the middle. I have noticed don’t do it repeatedly, because the CPU adapts of course.

One thing I'm undecided on with this game pertains to Cover 4 Quarters. In real life and even in Madden to an extent Quarters is pretty good at getting both safeties in run support. I need to run it a little more to ensure that is the case here.

Many would understandably think cover 2 is better vs the run than cover 4, but its not the case. Cover 4 is great against spread option teams. Instead of dropping back, in a cover 4 both safeties make a flat foot read and if they read run they get downhill to fill (why it is more susceptible to PA than other defenses)

Not sure how using a 2 shell would impact that or even if CFB incorporates the flat foot read (just checked, its present), so just something to consider

[Hooe]

Re: Need some defensive help

Sky / Buzz / Cloud is common football terminology shared across many defensive systems used to indicate who is the force defender in run support on the side of the run strength:

Sky = Safety is the force defender
Buzz = Linebacker (or replacement defensive back in Dime / Dollar personnel) is the force defender
Cloud = Cornerback is the force defender

Other than that, everything ggsimmonds wrote up.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Need some defensive help

Sky / Buzz / Cloud is common football terminology shared across many defensive systems used to indicate who is the force defender in run support on the side of the run strength:

Sky = Safety is the force defender
Buzz = Linebacker (or replacement defensive back in Dime / Dollar personnel) is the force defender
Cloud = Cornerback is the force defender

Other than that, everything ggsimmonds wrote up.

Thank you! I knew what they do and the differences but never learned where the naming came from

[Collegefbfan]

Re: Need some defensive help

One thing I'm undecided on with this game pertains to Cover 4 Quarters. In real life and even in Madden to an extent Quarters is pretty good at getting both safeties in run support. I need to run it a little more to ensure that is the case here.

Many would understandably think cover 2 is better vs the run than cover 4, but its not the case. Cover 4 is great against spread option teams. Instead of dropping back, in a cover 4 both safeties make a flat foot read and if they read run they get downhill to fill (why it is more susceptible to PA than other defenses)

Not sure how using a 2 shell would impact that or even if CFB incorporates the flat foot read (just checked, its present), so just something to consider

I was thinking in more terms of the offense needing a definite pass to hit. Especially in the video game world, not real life. CPU "reads or sees" Cover 2 and thinks seams are open, but the defense being in an actual cover 4 could be good against the seams. But like I said, I did not make this up. I read it or saw it somewhere. I can't take credit for any of. Never played a down of organized football.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: Need some defensive help

I was thinking in more terms of the offense needing a definite pass to hit. Especially in the video game world, not real life. CPU "reads or sees" Cover 2 and thinks seams are open, but the defense being in an actual cover 4 could be good against the seams. But like I said, I did not make this up. I read it or saw it somewhere. I can't take credit for any of. Never played a down of organized football.

Oh for sure, I was just adding that for the benefit of others. Everything is a give and take. I just want to let others know what they are giving

[Collegefbfan]

Re: Need some defensive help

Some additional insight on Cloud vs Sky


Treat Sky as your base cover 3, then switch to Buzz/Cloud to adapt to what the offense is hurting you with. Cloud gets special consideration because its basically a built in cover 3 from a cover 2 look.

There are other weaknesses to each of these that I didn't mention because its common to all cover 3 coverages. For example plays called "Curl Flats" will eat cover 3 all day. Thats how you drive down the length of the field 6-8 yards at a time.

For this part here. Are you saying that it is already disguised. So, we don't need to disguise it with a Cover 2 shell?

[Collegefbfan]

Re: Need some defensive help

Also, is there a general basic rule to go by for audibles when the CPU offense comes out and runs no huddle like crazy for so many plays in a row?

I feel like the audibles that are set already suck pretty badly. I know there are many, too many to go over. But say I run a successful blitz, the offense plays no huddle, comes out, I don't want to blitz again.

Ideas?