IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

[Bballplaya72]

Ian I posted this earlier, just hoping to get your opinion on it.

I have been thinking of a few ways to make the passing game and pocket better. My two ideas:

To throw the ball away in the vicinity of the receiver when you're in the pocket, you would hold left trigger and press the corresponding button to throw the ball away and not get called for grounding.

Also, how many times do we go to pass to somebody that we think is open, only at the last second see the defender. Well, how about say you press X, or whatever receiver button and at the last second see a defender in zone coverage on him. What if you double tapped X or w/e button and your QB would kind of pump fake, going to throw the ball only to see at the last second a defender is there and pull the ball back.

I think both of these suggestions could help improve the passing game and make the game a bit more realistic.

Thoughts?

[Bballplaya72]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

Can I get a damn response lol

[BezO]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

I dig both of these. I've recommended the throw away function before, but the pump fake to a specific receiver with a double tap is also a very good idea.

[SoxFan01605]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

I agree. To add on the double tap idea, I'd like to see maybe a greater risk for the ball slipping out if you try and pull back the initial attempt too late. Nothing crazy, just a slight increase in probability, especially if being hit while in this animation. Also on throwaways, I still want the basic one left in. That way if you panic or are in a rush the chance for grounding is still a threat. I like you. Great ideas!

[DocHolliday]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

Ehhh. C+ on ideas.

One has already been implemented in "that other game", and the other one with throwing the ball away, who really cares.

A pocket and DEs that get up field like real people would be a start for this game.

[ImagiNationFreak]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

I don't think I ever threw the ball away in any football game. Except maybe in a practice game to see what buttons do what.

The pump fake in "the other game" is perfect. You pump fake by double tapping the button of the receiver you want to throw it to. It sometimes even screws with the D and makes them go to that receiver and opens up the other receiver. I can't believe Madden does not have this feature already. It's basic.

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

The pump fake in "the other game" is perfect. You pump fake by double tapping the button of the receiver you want to throw it to. It sometimes even screws with the D and makes them go to that receiver and opens up the other receiver. I can't believe Madden does not have this feature already. It's basic.

I disagree with you here - I personally don't believe the double tap pump fake is a good mechanic. There are NUMEROUS times in 2k when I've tapped the button in a haste since I'm about to get sacked and ended up pump faking.

I've thought about changing it up this year to somehow make it directional...but I haven't decided on a mechanic. Something like LT + the button is kind of complicated you know? It's not bad...but it's not great. Did any of you play NCAA last year? What did you think about the R-stick directional pump fake?

As for the OP's idea of the receiver-based throw away, that seems just a bit too complex to me my man...mainly since it's probably not the best idea to add complexity to a control that no one really uses anyway. I'd rather just make throw-away do that automatically based on the AWR of your QB instead of making it a user-controlled thing. Thoughts on that?

[DrUrsus]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

I disagree with you here - I personally don't believe the double tap pump fake is a good mechanic. There are NUMEROUS times in 2k when I've tapped the button in a haste since I'm about to get sacked and ended up pump faking.

As for the OP's idea of the receiver-based throw away, that seems just a bit too complex to me my man...mainly since it's probably not the best idea to add complexity to a control that no one really uses anyway. I'd rather just make throw-away do that automatically based on the AWR of your QB instead of making it a user-controlled thing. Thoughts on that?

I agree with both of these points whole heartedly.

[drae2]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

I disagree with you here - I personally don't believe the double tap pump fake is a good mechanic. There are NUMEROUS times in 2k when I've tapped the button in a haste since I'm about to get sacked and ended up pump faking.

I've thought about changing it up this year to somehow make it directional...but I haven't decided on a mechanic. Something like LT + the button is kind of complicated you know? It's not bad...but it's not great. Did any of you play NCAA last year? What did you think about the R-stick directional pump fake?

As for the OP's idea of the receiver-based throw away, that seems just a bit too complex to me my man...mainly since it's probably not the best idea to add complexity to a control that no one really uses anyway. I'd rather just make throw-away do that automatically based on the AWR of your QB instead of making it a user-controlled thing. Thoughts on that?

Ian, I totally agree with you on the pump fake. I was playing that other, other game last night, acidently pump faked, got sacked, fumble, and ended up losing the game (doh!). To me, if you could somehow come up with a version of the read and lead feature from Fever, that would improve the passing to me. What do you think on that feature?

[ImagiNationFreak]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

I disagree with you here - I personally don't believe the double tap pump fake is a good mechanic. There are NUMEROUS times in 2k when I've tapped the button in a haste since I'm about to get sacked and ended up pump faking.

Your right, I didn't think about that. Plus they actually pump fake a little to slow which causes you to get sacked easier. How about holding down the R1 button then double tapping the button of the receiver you wanna throw the ball to, so you have a choice of who you wanna pump fake to?

[rhombic21]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

This is, quite frankly, the LAST thing that needs to be done as far as the passing game is concerned. R-Stick pump fakes are fine, but investing any more time than that into this, when the game has such horrible underlying AI issues, is just stupid.

If you want to fix the passing game, you need to:

- Have some semblence of a realistic pocket and pass rush
- Have man coverage that isn't stupid
- Have zone coverage where defenders are better able to adapt on the fly to routes in their area
- Have more throws that are simply uncatchable "non events". Not INTs (or dropped INTs), and not completions. Throws that are just incomplete.

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

This is, quite frankly, the LAST thing that needs to be done as far as the passing game is concerned. R-Stick pump fakes are fine, but investing any more time than that into this, when the game has such horrible underlying AI issues, is just stupid.

If you want to fix the passing game, you need to:

- Have some semblence of a realistic pocket and pass rush
- Have man coverage that isn't stupid
- Have zone coverage where defenders are better able to adapt on the fly to routes in their area
- Have more throws that are simply uncatchable "non events". Not INTs (or dropped INTs), and not completions. Throws that are just incomplete.

With you 100%. Of course I like to entertain all ideas though...we're not just making one game and that's it...we will keep making this game and improving on it for years to come.

[ImagiNationFreak]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

This is, quite frankly, the LAST thing that needs to be done as far as the passing game is concerned. R-Stick pump fakes are fine, but investing any more time than that into this, when the game has such horrible underlying AI issues, is just stupid.

If you want to fix the passing game, you need to:

- Have some semblence of a realistic pocket and pass rush
- Have man coverage that isn't stupid
- Have zone coverage where defenders are better able to adapt on the fly to routes in their area
- Have more throws that are simply uncatchable "non events". Not INTs (or dropped INTs), and not completions. Throws that are just incomplete.

Yes, but things like this have been mentioned over and over and over. I do agree that at least the Man Coverage needs fixed for Madden 2010.

[rhombic21]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

I guess my point here, and I'm glad that Ian agrees with it, is that this game (speaking of the franchise in general) has a TON of problems with FUNDAMENTAL parts of football. From OL/DL interaction, to WR/DB interaction, to pass accuracy, to the running game, to special teams. I think that a part of this is that the team has tried to do some "fancy" stuff, like this year's emphasis on the new running game controls, backtrack, etc.., rather than simplifying and focusing on the basics.

The answer to this game's problems (at least as far as this crowd is concerned) has very little to do with fixing animations. The animations have taken giant leaps forwards since last-gen, but the gameplay has not. The problem with this game is that the AI is terrible. From the computer's ability to make adaptive reactions to what the user is doing from a playcalling/adjustment perspective, to individual player AI with regard to being able to make adjustments to the play (based on ratings and abilities). Until there's a serious effort to fix the AI, the game is never going to take a huge step forward. You can plug in new animations/window dressing here or there and get a stop gap on certain issues, but you aren't going to be able to take the kind of giant step forward in realism that this game needs until you make the AI a lot better. And until we get to that point, any time spent on window dressing/side issues is only going to detract from game quality.

[BezO]

Re: IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

I disagree with you here - I personally don't believe the double tap pump fake is a good mechanic. There are NUMEROUS times in 2k when I've tapped the button in a haste since I'm about to get sacked and ended up pump faking.

Like everything else, folks would get used to it.

I've thought about changing it up this year to somehow make it directional...but I haven't decided on a mechanic. Something like LT + the button is kind of complicated you know? It's not bad...but it's not great. Did any of you play NCAA last year? What did you think about the R-stick directional pump fake?

Complicated? Holding one button & pressing another is too complicated? Isn't this how you enable the QB to use jukes & such, by holding a button & using others? How is this 2-button combination any less complicated than pressing a button & moving the stick in a direction any way? It's still a combination of 2 mechanics.

As for directional pump faking, I didn't play NCAA, so I don't know, but in the NFL, QBs are usually looking to affect only one DB, usually when a WR is donig a double move. Why would you not want to represent that?

As for the OP's idea of the receiver-based throw away, that seems just a bit too complex to me my man...mainly since it's probably not the best idea to add complexity to a control that no one really uses anyway. I'd rather just make throw-away do that automatically based on the AWR of your QB instead of making it a user-controlled thing. Thoughts on that?

No one uses it because you can't throw the ball away while in the pocket without drawing a penalty. But NFL QBs throw the ball away while in the pocket all the time. And they throw in the direction of one of their WRs to avoid the penalty. This is QBing 101. It's taught. Get rid of the ball when the clock in your head goes off. Ex: Screen play is called, but is covered. What is the user to do? Would directional throw away allow for throwing at the feet of the RB like they do in the NFL?

Part of the all or nothing, big play or INT mentality is tied to the lack of this mechanic. You don't give the user any choice but these. It's probably part of the reason users are looking to get out of the pocket every play. The choices in the pocket are limited.

What the QB's awareness should control is, when you do intentionally overthrow/underthrow a WR, where the QB puts the ball. Lesser aware QBs might throw right to a DB or draw a grounding penalty, where as a more aware QB will put the ball where no one can get it without drawing the penalty.


My thought is that you all spend too much time dumbing down the game and not enough time teaching it. Instead of these distracting features like tug of war, ect. why not have a fleshed out training mode that teaches the game? See my suggestion here. For QB training, Collingsworth could explain how, when & why you would throw the ball away.

And you could always just expand on the control options the way you do now. Aren't there default controls, classic controls, ect? Why not Advanced controls for those that want to play football?

How do you plan to ever produce the most realistic representation of football ever if you're constantly making the game for the casual fan? The casual fan supposedly doesn't care for or know how to play realistic football.