Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

[DC]

Ok I have been doing some testing. I am in tutorial mode basically scrimmaging. I have both controllers set to one team.

I am Dallas and the CPU is Indiana.

For Dallas I put this lineup in the game.
PG - Damp
SG - Diop
SF - Singleton
PF - Shawne Williams
C - Bass

I did this to test if it mattered if the away from the ball offensive player being a bad shooter mattered how much the CPU helped off.

I am controlling Bass with the ball in the left corner. I placed Diop in the right corner, almost out of bounds. The player that is defending Diop is NOT in the lane as he should be. Both feet are clearly outside of the paint and he is a little more than a arm's length away from Diop. This is a fundamental issue here. He should have BOTH feet in the paint ready to help out if Bass beats his man off of the dribble.

Now I am moving Diop away from the corner to the wing. Again, his defender is still not in the paint is is practically one arm's length away from Diop.

I move Diop to half court. Now the defender has a foot on the 3PT line opposite wing from where the ball is.

I tried these scenarios with various combinations of
Help Defense Global Sldier @ 100 and 0
Coach Profile Sliders @ 100 and 0
Defensive Awareness Sliders @ 100 and 0

I don't know if it can really be fixed this year.

So maybe if some of you can test it out and see for yourself that help defense is seriously broken if you don't believe me

[thriller92]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

What you're talking about is zoning a side of the floor, leading an isolated player into the help defence. I think that aspect of the game is still a few years away because that's next level defence which, I'd say, 60% of the teams dont even use. Only the great teams do this and do it well because they know where to rotate next because theyre so in sync, such as the Spurs, Celtics, and now the Lakers.

Most of us are talking about when you drive past your man, there should be at least 2 more lines of defence before you can even think about driving in for a layup(vs having a help defender being there before the move is even made which is what youre talking about). Instead of the defenders on the side being glued to their man, they should recognize theres been a blowby and help off their man, causing a drive and kick opportunity for the ball handler, forcing the defence to make at least one rotation to the next pass.

What your talking about is a very advanced strategy which involves 2k taking their game to the next level and really having the defensive awareness at an all time high. Itd be amazing if they ever put this kind of strategy in the game but I think its a couple years away from that kind of awareness from the AI to happen. They still have to fix the way the cpu is glued to their man and not recognizing whats happening with the ballhandler part of the defence still.

[DC]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

The reason why the defender doesn't get there in time to help his teammate who just got beat off the dribble is because he was never in the help position to began with.

They still have to fix the way the cpu is glued to their man and not recognizing whats happening with the ballhandler part of the defence still.

If he is damn near glued to his man, there is no humanly possible way he can get into the paint to help out his teammate.

So the issue is that players are not even in POSITION to help their teammates out BEFORE the player gets beat off the dribble.

Thats the issue

[J.R. Locke]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

I always go to the CPU side and set each player so the CPU defends them with the right spacing.

Set guys who can't shoot to sag off
all the rest to the middle one (tight I think it is called this year)

Sometimes I set deny ball to dominate big guys. My USER PF is a stud and I have deny ball and double team in paint for him against most teams. This makes it hard for him to score like it should be.

That is how I correct the problem. I won't go into a serious discussion about help defense issues because it is pointless right now. If 2k's personel came on here and asked I would gladly detail it but that involves coaching strategies (we don't want just one kind of help defense....its all about strategies to me).

Tweak the game to your liking.

[jfsolo]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

Now I see what people are talking about when then they say its "Broken". I guess its a matter of semantics, but I guess what they are really saying is that there is a fundamental design flaw in how players sag or play defense on the weak side. So players in close proximity of a player driving will give solid help, but the paint isn't as crowded as it should be on a lot of plays, because of the lack of correct weak side sagging, thus making the drive and kick game much less effective then it should be. So we need to try to get the word out to VC that they need to rewrite the code when it comes to how defenders sag or cheat on the weak side. Off the ball defense does need to be tuned in several areas.

[ryanm1058123]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

Help defense works great in this game when you are a PG and you beat your man off the dribble and you head towards the basket. A big guy always comes to help all the time. What the problem is, is that the wing players guarding the perimeter players do not help, at all, and that on offense your typical 3 point shooters aren't far enough from the basket at times. They are away a foot away from the 3pt line when they should be behind it, AT TIMES. I'm not saying they should always be sitting at the 3pt line but they should be there a lot more than usual.

Lets take an example. Yesterday, I was playing as the bulls. Had Rose at PG, and I had a lineup where Tyrus was playing C. the PG got beat off the dribble, the center (or PF, it kind of rotates who comes for the help) steps up for the help. But Tyrus Thomas is on the left wing, by the 3pt line. The SF guarding him sticks on him like hot glue. That is a giveaway situation where the wing player guarding Tyrus should come to help and leave Tyrus WIDE open.

So basically what I'm saying is, help defense is 50% there. We just need the other 50% to work.

[DC]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

I do that as well JR; but even when they SAG OFF of a player they are not sagging off into the lane when the ball is on the opposite side of the court.

Why is it pointless discussion? Next year will be here soon. They might not understand what is causing the issue. That is why we give feedback to help them out. Don't think we are talking for nothing. Many ideas we have mentioned have made it into the games. (Me crying about being able to edit standing dunks and the Human/Human Jab Step issue). You have a voice man.

[dragonsruleme]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

2K seriously needs to consider hiring some of the people on from this board. They know the game inside and out and know all the flaws the game has. I guess they wouldn't like being told what is wrong with their game by a non developer, but it'd help having knowledgeable feedback. Whoever is doing it now, doesn't seem to be too good at catching these flaws.

[DC]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

I don't want to bash. I love 2K and am very loyal to them. But sometimes I do question how much basketball the people that actually CODE the game know. I know Sim and Rob know about ball but the others dudes. I wonder.......

[TCruz]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

That's how I've felt about a lot of sports games. It seems to me they should have one 'NBA' or basketball expert paired with an expert coder. I think they hire people that really know coding, and know basketball passively. I also have felt as though the video game testers they hire are most likely professional video game testers, which to 2k and other companies gives these people credibility. However just because a guy is a video game tester doesn't mean he knows the game of basketball. That's the problem, this guy is looking for bugs and glitches, meanwhile there's tons of gameplay flaws in front of him, but he doesn't notice because he has no knowledge of basketball at all.

They really should hire some people from the boards, people that have been playing for a long time, people that are always trying to make the game better, and most important people that know the game of basketball and have actually spent time playing it. I played my whole life up through college, and though it was only a D-3 school. I'd like to think I know a little bit about the game. They need to hire people that are just knowledgeable about the sport. Not knowledgeable about how to find bugs. Keep some of those people on, sure. But they can only find a small portion of problems. They still managed to somehow test the game, not figure out that there's a free throw hiccup, not figure out the 2k camera angle lags, not figure out the inbounds glitch, and so on. So I don't think that their professional video game testers have really done anything that warrants them bringing back the same crew.

[Court_vision]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

Great thread DC...and you've put your points across excellent. As has everyone on the thread to date.

There's no doubt it's fundamanentally flawed.

For me, it's kind of ruined the game.

I ISO LeBron...I drive...i beat my man...

And the CPU wingmen are all stuck like super glue to the guys they are defending.

The D needs to collapse.

1. I can score way too easily with a guy like LBJ, even post patch.

2. It kills any sort of draw and kick game.

As you said, even if you put non shooters on the perimeter...the CPU defenders never leave their men.

The game feels really predictable because of it.

Every time I drive, i know what's going to happen.

The big man coming across to finally "help" is also broken as he leaves his guy free under the basket. You can simply pass off to the unguarded big for a lay up with ease most of the time.

[m-dogg]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

DC, for the weakside D issue...they need to fix passing first before they fix this issue. Because in choops08 the weakside D sags off perimiter players as it should, ready to help out the post/drives/etc -- but because passing in 2k's games is WAY too easy and accurate, you could always post then throw a pass to the opposite side's spot up shooter for an open 3 (and this is even with D awareness at 100).

Now if they made passing cross court more difficult and realistic, and you had to swing the ball around for that wide open shot -- it would bring tears of joy to my eyes. I think the D should deflect 90% of these crazy passes, and only then could proper defensive help and basic defensive rotations be programmed for this game. That would be fantastic, and give us sliders controlling this...as poor defensive teams are usuailly worse in their rotations and assignments. you watch the celts and you see a defensive team on a string, their rotations are lightening quick...

these two overhauls and adding a true footplanting system would really make a realistic dream 2k game for 2010...in fact, is this already in the wishlist thread? i think i gotta add my 2 cents to that one hehe...

[J.R. Locke]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

I do that as well JR; but even when they SAG OFF of a player they are not sagging off into the lane when the ball is on the opposite side of the court.

Why is it pointless discussion? Next year will be here soon. They might not understand what is causing the issue. That is why we give feedback to help them out. Don't think we are talking for nothing. Many ideas we have mentioned have made it into the games. (Me crying about being able to edit standing dunks and the Human/Human Jab Step issue). You have a voice man.

I have less faith I guess. I was really disappointed with the lack of customizable features this year. So I have given up hope.

At least with the guys over in the EA forums they are actually corresponding with us and leading discussion. 2k hasn't done that and with all the games not coming back (APF, CHoops) I am thinking 2k is a sinking ship.

That is why all my hope lies with the PC version of 2k9 for me. I am not too worried about next year.

[Benicio10]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

This is a superb thread.

I notice this year there is better defensive AI in on-ball defense. Defenders sag on poor shooters and play tight on good ones.

But in terms of off-the-ball perimeter D, the AI is poor.

We've been asking for this for years. I sit there and try to make sliders so that you can get a draw & kick but it's just not there because no slider can fix poor AI. That's why now I'm more content with just playing the game engine and fixing shooting sliders, speed sliders, foul sliders and that's it!

But yea you guys are right in that interior defenders will leave their man and help, but perimeter defenders will not leave a shooter to help inside.

Another thing with defensive AI, i'm tired of guys trying to switch to guard their man while the offensive player has the ball. If you're on an island and youre not guarding "your man" you gotta stick with him don't leave a shooter open!!!

[Kruza]

Re: Let's Seriously Discuss The Issues With Help Defense

It's about time I've had some time to post on this topic. There are some things I want to add here regarding help defense in NBA 2K9.

First of all, like I touched on first post-patch impressions thread, the Defensive Pressure setting should be a completely separate matter that would not impact Help Defense settings at all. What I mean is that I shouldn't have to select 'Sag off' pressure in order to get guys in position to apply proper help defense. The Defensive Pressure slider setting should factor on the ball only, not for any issues away from the ball. With the way this is set up now, it only causes confusion on what a user may want certain defenders to do when he's involved on the ball (guarding the player with the basketball or guarding the player setting an on-ball screen) in a play sequence and also during instances when a play sequence is taking place away from them.

This series needs to have individual Help Defense options for every opposing player, and allow the user to select whether to 'Help' off that player (default or 'Auto' option) or to 'Stay' at home on that player (for hot 3-pt threats spotting up). For a couple examples... let's say I'm using the Magic and playing against the Celtics. I may want the player on my team who's guarding Ray Allen to 'Stay' on him at times since Allen has been unconscious from the arc during the course of the game. Conversely, I would want my player who's guarding Rajon Rondo to position himself to 'Help' in any possible situation that comes up.

Like I had mentioned before in the first post-patch thread, perimeter defenders on the weak side of the court should be standing near the edge or on the corner of the paint area. For instance, if a pick & roll sequence is taking place on the left side of the court, then the defenders who are assigned to the offensive players standing on the right side of the court should be standing at or near the right edge of the paint area paying attention to what's going on with the ball, but also not lose track of their man. The defender who's guarding the offensive player near the elbow upper wing area should be standing at or near the right upper corner of the paint or free throw line doing the same. As the screen-setter rolls to the basket or pops out to the wing, certain defenders off the ball will likely be in proper position to possibly disrupt whatever goes on in their area of the court. They'll be able to get their hands on a pass or step in front to take a charge on a roller. Or be able to close out quickly on the screen-setter popping out to shoot a jumper off the catch. Now whether the disruption of an executed offensive play actually occurs will depend on that defensive player's defensive awareness rating.

Another thing to note is that perimeter defenders away from the ball don't move quick enough to get in the right position to make an impact helping out. Now, currently in NBA 2K9 a big man will come over to block a shot in time on a consistent basis, and that's good. But what about those big men who are good at quickly getting in position to draw charges on any dribble drives like Anderson Varejao and Drew Gooden? That doesn't happen in NBA 2K9 because they don't move quick or soon enough to the spot they have to be in order to get in position to take one. In NBA 2K9, no matter the setting of any of the Help Defense-related sliders, defenders off the ball always wait until the layup or dunk animation kicks in before moving and that's too late. They should be moving the moment that the ballhandler puts the ball on the floor and take the first hard step on his dash to the basket. Whether the defender off the ball want to completely cut-off the path of the drive, give mixed signals to offensive players on if he's going to double down on a player posting up with the basketball, or just get close enough to take a swipe at the basketball while the ballhandler is driving past him to force him to mishandle the ball, the most important thing is that he's in the proper position to provide effective help defense in whatever he decides to do. I understand defensive players blow defensive assignments, lose sight of players, not get in proper position and things along these lines. But this stuff can be tweaked with the defensive awareness rating. At least set the game to have players get in proper position and make the right defensive play 100% of the time whenever the Help Defense Strength (i.e. get in proper position in a timely fashion) and Defensive Awareness (i.e. make the defensive play) sliders are both set to 100. Then users can tweak these sliders to account for blown defensive assignments, made too much body contact swiping at a ballhandler driving past while helping off the ball, tried to take a charge but moved to the spot of collision a tad too late, reacted too late and got beat to the basket on a backdoor cut, etc. that happens in real games.

m-dogg made a good reference in how accurate passing is in NBA 2K9. However, even if many of the passes made are accurate, many of those attempted crosscourt passes would be deflected or even intercepted if defenders located on the weak side were standing in proper position to begin with. And careless crosscourt passes would be picked off for sure. I agree about the consistently accurate long-range passing needing to be toned down, but the positioning of help defenders is the more important issue now.

I'll have to find some movies on this topic because visual aids are needed to explain the points I'm trying to get across here.

Kruza