PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

[balage76]

Hi !

I think one of the most important thing (besides setting the coach profiles) to improve the CPU midrange game, that we have to change the individual player tendencies.

Set only the global tendency sliders aren't the way. This is not enough. The "substance" is in the individual player tendency.

I play some test game, and CPU shots more from mid range, when I change the individual player mindrange tendency to a higher level, and set the close shots lower.

I know, Nogster has a very good tendency "list". I try this, but I think, some things need to be change.

He gives to star players good mid range values, but I think, other players has low mid range value. (Bosh, Lebron ,etc has 85-99, it's O.K) I think we need to increase mid range tendencies of all players, who shots from mid range so much in real life. The values are better between 80-99. Who doesn't score much from mid, 60-80 is the best value. To Bigs, who doesn't shot from mid, the best value is 0. (These are Youngns values ! )

First question ! Are these values good ? (It's Youngns values, this is my base)
(G-SF with many mid shot --> set it 95,stars 99.
G-SF with less mid --> 80
PF-C who shots some mid shots---> 60
Dirk --> 99
Bigs, who don't shoot ---> 0

Close:
G-SF: not too much inside scoring --> set it to 10
G-SF: many inside points --> 20-40
Bigs: not many inside shots --> 20-35
Bigs: many inside score --> 35-60(max)

Attack basket:
attack basket many times -->75-99 (Lebron, Kobe, Wade)
don't attack ---> between 40-60
50%-50% --> 60-75

Guys ! Change the player tendencies same like these, and test it !


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(For example: In Nogster tendency Willie Green has just 55 mid range tendency. I think it needs to increase this to 75-80. He shots so many mid range in a real game. )

Besides this, we have to lower the close shot a little bit, prevent the PiP problem.

I'm on the PC, I think it's not different from xbox or PS. There are some differences, but not in player tendencies.

I try Nogsters tendencies, and CPU attack the basket everytime. Than I lower the close tend, increase the mid, and players shots, more from midrange.


If I'm wrong, that Nogsters mid range tendencies needs to increase, tell me.

I tried this, and with the change (increase the mid tendencies), I saw the difference.

It's important: NOGSTER !!! If I use your player tendencies and coach profiles, I need to use your sliders ? Becuase I use a slider, based on Youngns slider.

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I follow Youngn's individual player tendency values (see in his slider topic, on the last pages).
But I need others opinion of this. Maybe you guys, should test it. Play on Nogsters, than increase the mid tend, and play again. I think, you'll see the difference.

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With these words, I DON'T SAY, THAT NOGSTERS TENDENCIES aren't good. Most of people say, this is the best, and I respect Nogster very much. He is one of the guy, who makes this sh*t 2k9 better and better. So I really appreciate all of your work Nogster. It's true, I'm play on PC, but your opinions, your findings helps the PC players also !!

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And another thing: please find the best coaching profile settings:

mainly:
- fast break (it needs to lower a little bit, because in a real NBA game there are not SO many fastbreak. On default, there are many many fastbreaks)

- crash boards (on default, CPU is a rebound king)

- Run plays (I set this low, around 10-20. I realize, that on low values, CPU doesn't make so many assists. IN a real game, when a team score 100 point, there are about 25 ast. Run Plays on higher level, CPU team has 30+ assist. It's not realistic.) But we have to find the balance, 10 is very low, but 50 is so high, I think.

- Attack Basket ( If I set this to 60, will the CPU does more PiP ? )


So the reason I made this topic:

"COLLECT" THE BEST values of individual player tendencies in one place.

and

"Find" the effects of each coaching profiles (run plays, crash boards, attack basket) What happenes, when I set it to high, and what happens, when I decrease it to lower level.



I know there are so many playing style, Users have different style, but if users defense are GOOD, and you don't make so many mistakes in your defense, CPU have to shot more from midrange.



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Set USERs coaching profiles Defensive pressure to 0 is important. It makes more space between the defender and the ballhandler, and CPU can take more midshots.

But, I have one more question: if my def pressure is 0, CPU players shot many 3pts, because they have "big" space.
What can I do ? In Coaching/double/presssure take the good 3pt shooters tight ? But wit h this, they won't shoot many from midrange.

Or set the user def pressure in coach profiles to around 8. I saw some improvement, my players defense nearer.

We have to find the balance !!!

[Jukeman]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

yup, I agree with the player tendencies as I do sumthin similar myself...it only make sense to raise jump shooters mid range and lower their close range becuz the game is so catered to inside shots...to keep sim stats realistic you would have to definitly lower some other tendencies aswhile...

[RAZRr1275]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

yup, I agree with the player tendencies as I do sumthin similar myself...it only make sense to raise jump shooters mid range and lower their close range becuz the game is so catered to inside shots...to keep sim stats realistic you would have to definitly lower some other tendencies aswhile...

I'm really interested to see your new sliders and what kind of adjustments you do to the tendencies and coach profiles. Any chance of something coming this week?

[Jukeman]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

I'm really interested to see your new sliders and what kind of adjustments you do to the tendencies and coach profiles. Any chance of something coming this week?

I'll try, most likely I won't post the player tendencies, the OP and youngn are pretty much on the same page with me as far as player tendencies goes...I'm still using nogsters tho, I just edit them for even more great results

[RAZRr1275]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

I'll try, most likely I won't post the player tendencies, the OP and youngn are pretty much on the same page with me as far as player tendencies goes...I'm still using nogsters tho, I just edit them for even more great results

Okay just sliders and coach profiles would be fine. Just post up a short guide on how your tendencies work. I'm really looking forward to it.

[balage76]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

Man !

I "discovered" some things :wink:

In order:
I try nogsters sliders with his player tendencies and coach profiles.

The first quarter was awesome. There are some midrange shots, good actions. So near every part of the game was realistic. My defense was good. In the 2nd quarter it was the same. But in the 3rd I lost the game. Raptors lead about 15-20.

So this was good !


BUT: my Deffense Pressure set to 0.

I think it's NO GOOD ! Because with 0, the CPU players can shoot easy threepointers.

I gave a try, set the def press to 14. It was better. Defenders were nearer to ballhandler, and they can't shoot easy threes. We have to find the balance, because we want the CPU to shoot from mid, but we don't want so many 3s.
WHAT'S THE GOOD VALUE on DEF PRESSURE ? Or we have to change the on ball defense or some other sliders to solve this ?



Another thing:

As I said, I use nogster sliders, and his player tendencies.
After the first test game, I edit the players midrange shooting to higher level. (As Youngns made. I wrote it in my 1st post. Bosh 95, Calderon 85, Parker 80, etc,etc)
And I start a new game with this changes.
And what happened ?

No big difference, as with nogsters mid range tendency values.

I don't know the reason.


I SAY IT 1000 times, that the USERS DEFENSE SOLVES THE CPUs MID RANGE GAME. If users play good defense, CPU score less PiP, and shot more from midrange. We can use hundreds of different sliders, to find the best, but the defense is the most important. This effects the opponents mid game.

So as I played this test game, my defense was so bad. I found out, that I had to see, what the CPU team does against a good defense. So I switch the contol to "center", and leave the CPU to control my team. So it was a CPU vs. CPU game. I just wanted to see, how play the Raptors play against good defense.

Because when I play defense, and I make a mistake, CPU punish me. Always ! When I switch to my PF, and stand just 1 seconds, and not follow the CPU offensive player, the opponent PG pass the ball inside to opponent PF, and he score an easy point. From every defensive mistake, taken by the user, means an easy point by the CPU.
So 2k9 is a very good game, because if you play **** defense, you are punished, like in real life.


SO: what I saw, when my team (76ers) controlled by the CPU against the CPU raptors team ?


I saw, that Raptors shot many-many mid shots !!! It was very realistic. Bosh, Calderon, Bargnani, Parker shot from midrange. Because there were not so much mistake on defense.

So when you play good (super!) defense, CPU takes not too many inside shots.



I tested another thing:

I lowered the global take midrange slider tendency by the CPU. It was on 100 but I took it to 30.
And CPU shots nearly nothing from mid.


It shows, that CPU "Take Mid sliders" needs to set to near 100. We know that, so it's not new.


And I say, that Nogsters sliders are better than youngns. I was a fan of youngns sliders, but when I played today with nogsters, I had a better gameplay.

Main difference of the 2 sliders is: the defensive awereness. Nogster took it to 100. With this setting, I see more def rebounds by my team, cpu has less offensive. It was realistic.

But I don't know the real effects of the defensive awereness. ???



One more thing:

Nogster set the fastbreak slider in the cpu coach profiles to around 40.
When I set this to 40 and using youngns sliders, cpu make so many fastbreaks, which is not realistic.

What is behind this ? Is some connection between the def awereness and fastbreak ? (My teammates go back earlier, and prevent cpus fastbreaks ? )

Another thing I love in nogster sliders: the speed. I'm on PC, and it was great. When I use the turbo, players run as in real life.


At the end of this long "letter" I say that Nogsters tendencies works with his sliders. Am I right ?

And WE HAVE TO PLAY SUPER DEFENSE TO PREVENT CPUs EASY LAYUPS.

[Jukeman]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

if you lower on ball D you can keep the D pressure around the default settings...I have on ball D at 0 and defenders are not glued to the ball anymore, there is alot of space for mid range game, also bowens still will play tight D and shooters will still get D up...the down side of having on ball D at 0 is that it will be super easy to ISO your way to the hoop, hence why I have ball handling at 0 also

[balage76]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

if you lower on ball D you can keep the D pressure around the default settings...I have on ball D at 0 and defenders are not glued to the ball anymore, there is alot of space for mid range game, also bowens still will play tight D and shooters will still get D up...the down side of having on ball D at 0 is that it will be super easy to ISO your way to the hoop, hence why I have ball handling at 0 also

And find a mid-solution ? -->

On Ball def to 30, Def press 30. Around this values. So because of the on ball D on 30 we can defend the isomotion moves better, than set it to 0.
And set Def press from default 50 to lowest value. Around 20-30.



Now, I have On Ball D on 50, Def press on 0, sometimes 15-20 to test what's better 0 or low values like 10-15.


I I lower On Ball D, and increase def press ? I try this.


Oh, with the settings you mentioned, are you using coaching-double/pressures ? (Tight, deny,sag off options on your opponents ? OR just the on ball 0 def press default ?)

[nogster]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

the reason i dont have jump shooters..[of the role playing kind] with a high mid tendency [willie green], because, i dont want these NON stars to take over the offense and shoot more than their star counterpart team mates..
its that simple..
i dont think raising jump shooters mid range helps the flow of the game, ESSPECIALLY if they have high 3pt tendencies..
you will notice with my tendencies, that role players, or 3pt shooters, generally have LOW mid range, even if they shoot them in reality..
this is simply because, their 3pt tendency is high enough for them to shoot open shots regardless. if you put their mid to what their [dna] level is, they will take over the offense more.

look. we all know with 2k9, the game is heavily built to score inside, and all the slider player tendency tinkerings in the world, only make subtle differences to this issue.
thats why, even with close tendency at 0, the cpu will still shoot inside whenever it can.

the best way to combat the P.I.P. is to accept it as a 2k9 fact, and play defense with a focus on limiting it.
clog the lanes, lower defensive pressure, [although i dont agree with having def pressure any lower than 40, as it becomes a 3pt spree] you need to find a balance.

as you guys will see, if you read the http://www.operationsports.com/forum...-thread-4.html i created, my P.I.P are not that bad. and the results are fine. im enjoying this game. its my fave nba game yet.

i think there comes a time, when youve just got to stop tinkering and tinkering, and just start playing, enjoy the experience for what it is, an nba video game, with awesome atmosphere and authenticity, with some pretty good gameplay if you play the right way, and within the games design.
the more you look for problems. the more you will find. its a video game, its impossible for a video game to trully replicate all the nuances of basketball, or any sport for that matter.

and about the relationship between my sliders and my player tendencies, or even the O.S outsiders roster.
you DONT need to use my sliders to get the best experience. find a set that suits you..
the O.S outsider rosters were made within 2ks system and general scale, so you can use any sliders that suit you. there is no specific set.
the same goes for the player tendencies,
i did the tendencies first, then tinkered with the game sliders.
meaning, the player tendencies and coach profiles, are simply a more improved version of default. to get a balance between realistic simmed stats and good cpu gameplay.

[pbz06]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

i think there comes a time, when youve just got to stop tinkering and tinkering, and just start playing, enjoy the experience for what it is, an nba video game, with awesome atmosphere and authenticity, with some pretty good gameplay if you play the right way, and within the games design.
the more you look for problems. the more you will find. its a video game, its impossible for a video game to trully replicate all the nuances of basketball, or any sport for that matter.

Amen to that.

That's why I stopped tinkering with sliders about a month ago. I used a combination of several of the sliders here (did an average type deal), and then tweaked them some more to what I felt was right. I (and we in general) have spent more time worrying about sliders/tendencies than we have actually spent time playing full games and enjoying them. It will NEVER be perfect, it's a video game for crying out loud. The best we can do is tell ourselves what is acceptable and to STOP looking and over analyzing each game to try and get them to play so perfect. The NBA season is already about 30 games in, and we're still trying to tweak sliders every day. Just accept that the sliders are partially broken in a way, and just enjoy the game for what it is. The less I look at the stats every game, the more fun I have if I just pop it in and play without worrying about PiP etc.

[balage76]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

Man ! Man !

I'm not a guy, who try to find problems in everything.

I have ONE PROBLEM with 2k9: MID RANGE GAME !!! No more !!! As you see, all of my comments is about the cpu mid range game !

Because 2k9 is a great game, with fantastic atmosphere, great BASKETBALL GAMEPLAY, and so on.

I work on the best slider, suits for me the best for 2 weeks. And that's only because I try to find the way, how the CPU shot more from midrange. This is the reason, I change player tendencies, this is the reason I try to find out slider effects.


O.K. I understand what you say about this Willie Green thing. O.K.
But I think shot tendency makes the player to shot more or not. If Wille has 90 shot tend, he scores much. If he has just 60, he shots "sometimes". But if his mid tendency is 60, and his close is 50, he score from inside, rather than mid. I think not just the star players needs higher midrange tendency. Am I wrong ?

But your tendencies are O.K, because I played against Indiana (write more beneath) with your player tendency, and they shot many mid shots.


Another thing, and it's a good thing ! A very good thing.

I play against Indiana. Player tendencies by Nogster, coach profiles nogster.
My def pressure fist on 0, but it's SH*T, ONCE AGAIN : SH*T, because in this way, CPU shots easy threes. So as Nogster said, guys, you have to find the balance. I set to 20, its nearer to good level.


Here is the first quarter stats:
IND-PHI
28-18
fg 11/21 8/20
3pt 1/7 1/2
ast 5 7
to 1 2
reb 12 8
off 3 4
stl 2 1
blk: 0 0
PiP: 12 10

As you see, there is only 12 point from the paint. There were 4 successful shots from midrange.

I play on 11 minutes, All Star.

At the end of the game I watched the stats, and saw, that Pacers shot 16 mid range shot !!!
This is more, than good !


I said, my defense was Sh*t. But there is another little problem, but we can solve this -->

Cpu shots very good from midrange. Cpu MID SUCCESS were at 49, but I tok it to 45. But it needs to lower 1 more point.


One thing: I try to set my def pressure to 100. And, I don't know why CPU has some mid range shots. But I defense so tight with the 100 value. So I don't understand.

After this, I set def pressure to 70, and I saw, that cpu was attacking the basket many times. My onball def was on 45.

So I think, def pressure needs to be on low level, not 0, but around 20.


ANother problem: CPU has many many rebounds. Twice as me ! I think it's because of the crash boards coaching profiles setting, so I lowered it a little !
*****

Guys ! I'm player,who like to see realistic stats. Yeah, maybe I'm overanalyze the stats. But I like to play, when cpu not just score from inside.

I THINK, THAT SLIDERS CAN SOLVE THE MIDRANGE PROBLEM (with individual player tendencies, and coaching profiles), BUT IT'S IMPORTANT TO FIND THE BALANCE !!! Because the sliders are very sensitive. Set something 1 more point, and it's going to the wrong way.


Sorry for my "overanalyzing, tinkering,tinkering" thing !

Oh, and something :wink:

[domingo_salanguit]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

thats true... sliders are very sensitive because using tomba set, 35.5 at 3pt tendency will result to too much threes from cpu (especially from their superstar, taking at least 12) but bring it down to 35 flat and the attempts will decrease and superstar will take around not more than 8 shots...

[balage76]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

I play against the Heat. It was a good game again. Wade was in foul trouble, so Beasley had to lead the team. He shot little bit too much from inside, but mainly because of my defense, and mainly because of his hig Close tendency.


Cpu shot some midrange shots, so I am more satisfied from day to day.

Here are the stats:



I play on All Star, and just this time 11mins quarters. But 12 is better. PiP is good, my defense could solve this, but I have to improve on D.

Threes are O.K, my Def Pressure on 29 seems good. They beat me on the last quarter. In the last 8 minutes Heat was hot

They shot 60% from under the basket. Close shots needs to be lower and my DEFENSE needs to IMPROVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rocky]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

One flaw I can already see is that there are FAR too less FT's being attempted. PIP are always going to be high with those numbers...hell, Dwayne should've had 14 FT's by himself. 25-30 FT's is the average....I would try increasing the contest shots slider as well as the commits fouls slider.

[nogster]

Re: PLAYER TENDENCY & Coach profiles !

you cant judge by one game though.
i think thats the problem with some people opinions on issues with this game as well..
they will have 1 game and see issues [or none] and then make changes to compensate which opens up more issues.

thats why i love this game, and sport games in general [good ones]. as there is always variety with outcomes.
just like reality there are one offs anomolies or crazy moments that happen..
take for instance kobe 81pts....imagine if that was done by the cpu in 2k9..people would be whinging about cheesy cpu etc.
or the time the lakers took 45 3s against the grizzlies [if memory serves] last season.....imagine if that was done by the cpu in 2k9....slider changes...thats what would happen. lol....