Outside the football field

[Glorious Arc]

I had a 40 yard run happen in a play now game today against the bucs just to see about the no huddle mass confusion and I noticed some thing really odd.

Jonathan Stewart ran the ball to the sideline and at halftime they had it on replay and I saw another number 28 player who was fat and white on my bench. There were other players with the number 04 and 07 and the entire setup wasnt in reflection of my team. In fact, I looked at the bucs bench and I saw the exact same players but they were placed in different spots. They all have the same build as the counterparts on my bench with the same numbers doing the same motions but just placed in different spots.

So I looked to the sideline and saw all the camera people who honestly I never paid attention to before but during the play I couldnt figure out if I had the play in aciton or not because only 3 different figures move. The rest are just wax people who dont move. Wouldnt it be amazing if you ran into a crowd of people on the sideline and they scattered to not get hit by your player?

That got me thinking to look at the crowd...sure enough same thing...There was a black guy in a white t-shirt with 5 other guys that looked the same all doing the same motion at the same time. The white guys in the blue t-shirts were the exact same way but they did a different motion then the white t-shirt guys. The entire crowd was made up of just a handful of people that all did the same motion as the other same colored t-shirts.

I dont know how much of this was covered in other posts but I wanted to hear everyone elses opinion about these findings.

[ch46647]

Re: Outside the football field

I am hoping for FULLY INTERACTIVE sidelines this year. It has been mentioned alot this year among the community and I am hoping they make this happen for Madden 10. I seem to remember Ian saying right after 09 came out that making the sidelines lifelike and interactive would not be that difficult to do.

As far as the crowd goes I doubt they will get to much as far as visual aspects go. I do however think they will make a major overhaul on crowd volume and interaction with the game. This is something I think Madden has always needed. I dont think there is one Madden game ever that has impressed me as far a crowd interaction goes.

[seriousluboy83]

Re: Outside the football field

noticed it when i first turned the game on


AREVA DERCHE

[tmccormi]

Re: Outside the football field

The thing people are quickest to point out when discussing these issues is the framerate and space the sidelines would take up on the disc.

Would you rather have a more realistic sideline (which I don't even notice anymore) at 30FPS or 60FPS and some cardboard cutouts. If you were a PS3 user with Madden08 at 30fps, you'd already know the answer.

[Ian_Cummings]

Re: Outside the football field

Oh how I wish this wasn't the case! I feel so defeated when it comes to interactive sidelines.

Glorious Arc you are correct, there are a lot of 'clones' throughout the crowd and sidelines. They do actually animate during the play, but sometimes the camera guys and other random 'non players' animation data isn't saved into the replay (this is because of memory constraints...RAM, not HD).

As I think everyone is well aware, EVERY company that moved to 360 / PS3 went nuts on graphics. Well when the planning was done for graphical level of detail here at Tiburon, it was done to get the a.) absolute maximum amount of detail on 22 players on the field and b) insanely high-res stadiums. Extra characters really weren't considered because the player detail was so important, which is why it's been so hard getting new stuff in. That's why you haven't seen coaches in realtime on the sideline, or refs or chain gang either. All the initial planning and asset creation for the transition was done for 22 guys (at 30fps btw)...so it's been extremely difficult to make big global reductions as well as maintain 60 fps. Also, now that people are used to the visual fidelity of the game, we would take a lot of heat if the game started looking much worse graphically. I only wish that we had accounted for like 50 full-res guys.

APF2k8 decided to reduce the overall quality on their players, stadiums, environments, etc a little bit in order to have 22 EXTRA full-res players on the sidelines (instead of basic low-res clones). That's how they got the really killer interactions where the players catch you or you roll them over or whatever. I loved those...and no, those won't be in Madden NFL 10.

Personally (and I am not expressing the opinion of anyone else or of my employers), I'm of the mindset that MORE fully interactive characters = more immersion and "wow moments" to the user than having insane detail with fewer characters. Case in point - Dead Rising:


I really could care less what the graphics look like when I truly feel 100% immersed in that world (and in the story) because there are always 800 zombies around. I think NBA 2k has done an amazing job here as well - the guys get up for subs, the dude comes out and mops, and it's all realtime (they do have the luxury of a relatively tiny environment and only 10 players in the action at once though too).

So what do you guys think? As we move to the future, what is more important to you? Would you rather have the extra details (like the holes in the jerseys), or much less details on the players and the environment and more extra characters (that animate in a smarter manner) around the playing field? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

[tmccormi]

Re: Outside the football field

So what do you guys think? As we move to the future, what is more important to you? Would you rather have the extra details (like the holes in the jerseys), or much less details on the players and the environment and more extra characters (that animate in a smarter manner) around the playing field? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Just my opinion, but I'm more immersed with what's happening on the field than I am with the players on the sideline. When the Giants are on TV, I'm watching Eli under center, not Coughlin on the sidelines.

Again, just my opinion. While some interactive sidelines would be nice, I'd rather see the allocation of resources go to what's on the field.

[canes21]

Re: Outside the football field

Well, I want interactive crowd. It just depends how much detail you take out.

[tonynyy]

Re: Outside the football field

Even though I'm a huge fan of detailed player models, I've got to say that 50 interactive people on the field is impressive. Is there anywhere else you guys could subtract from to keep the detail in all the while getting 50 active bodies? I read a couple of years back that the GTA series had some really impressive compression tricks, maybe you should talk to them....

[spit_bubble]

Re: Outside the football field

"...Would you rather have the extra details (like the holes in the jerseys), or much less details on the players and the environment and more extra characters (that animate in a smarter manner) around the playing field?"

Details like holes in the jerseys will only get noticed if people go looking for them.

However, having poorly done crowds and sidelines stick out like sore thumbs.

To me this shouldn't even be a question. Seeing things like the crowd reaching for foul balls in MLB 09, or your teammates reacting to a juke in APF 2K8, is all fantastic...

So there's your answer.

[BezO]

Re: Outside the football field

to the future, what is more important to you? Would you rather have the extra details (like the holes in the jerseys), or much less details on the players and the environment and more extra characters (that animate in a smarter manner) around the playing field? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

I think a large variety of smooth, realistic animations does a lot more for bringing a character to life than graphical detail, especially for team sports games played from a distance. You don't see holes in jerseys while playing. I think NBA 2K has the perfect balance.

I wish you all would sap most of the detail from the stadiums and put it on the field, in & outside the lines. The struggle would then be getting that detail [back] in the stadium.

[tmccormi]

Re: Outside the football field

sooo...in other words..that whole dream we had of the "nfl head coach" sideline in madden has pretty much been shut down in advance?? i mean because nobody wants to go back to box players just for a active sideline..that question was retorical..but umm..at least i can say this is the only bad news ive heard for madden 10 for a while.

??? Don't listen to what I have to say, I have no say in the production of Madden. I was just stating my personal opinion on the matter, if the devs feel an interactive sideline will add to the game then they will put it in.

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but I'd like to clear up nothing I said should be taken as any foreshadowing for development of the sideline details.

[Pnutt6]

Re: Outside the football field

I think things like holes in the jersey are a little too much because they almost never get seen, unless in extreme closeups, which don't happen very often in Madden.

The sideline players don't look horrible although they could be upgraded slightly, but they should never wear the same numbers as any of the players on the field, their build should match their number/position, and they should react to action on the field even if it is only with primitive animations. The sideline players don't need to be fully interactive but shouldn't look like zombies or robots just staring straight ahead all the time.

The cardboard cutout crowds are tolerable, with a little more variety, as long as the camera doesn't pan over and focus on them in the wideshots. (Never understood why they show them so often when they don't look good closeup)

I would like to see cutscene style shots of sideline interaction post-play. Like quarterbacks walking over to coaches after a time-out, players hugging other players after touchdowns, and coaches yelling at players (and vice versa, ie: T.O., Chad Johnson, Anquan Boldin)

Also, referees need to make a comeback.

[K_GUN]

Re: Outside the football field

side bar...i remember david ortiz in an interview saying the "NG stadiums would even have the correct water fountains"......just thought to myself...WTF are they thinking

anyway......i choose smarter peripheral people Vs water fountains/holes in jerseys

[canes21]

Re: Outside the football field

Lets see.... What did 2k5 have? Great detail everywhere not just on field. It was a great success. I wouldn't mind having graphics similiar to 2k5 with a little next gen beef up.

[Steeler99]

Re: Outside the football field

"...Would you rather have the extra details (like the holes in the jerseys), or much less details on the players and the environment and more extra characters (that animate in a smarter manner) around the playing field?"

Details like holes in the jerseys will only get noticed if people go looking for them.

However, having poorly done crowds and sidelines stick out like sore thumbs.

To me this shouldn't even be a question. Seeing things like the crowd reaching for foul balls in MLB 09, or your teammates reacting to a juke in APF 2K8, is all fantastic...

So there's your answer.

Well said! many of the small details rarely get noticed during actual gameplay. Might look real nice in screen shots, but I really could care less about details in screen shots. We rarely see that same detail in action, so I have to agree that minimizing "some" on-field detail in return for a more full-feature detail of sidelines and crowds would definitely be welcome.

One other thing ... I sure hope Madden 10 will be the first Madden to have relatively intelligent crowds? Absolutely ruins the game to hear the home crowd cheering after a score, regardless of which team scores! Presentation factor would be huge if we could just have a crowd that cheers when "their" team does something good, or boos when they screw up. Also gets noisy or quiet at appropriate times of the game. Let's even have them leave early occasionally if the home team is getting their butt kicked (at some stadiums anyway).