Why Madden isn't recreating football as best it can (and how they can fix things)

[nm1043]

first, i want to point out this is supposed to be a constructive thread about madden, and not a thread to bash it... there are plenty of them elsewhere...

now, if you go up to someone who knows alot about football, or has played football, and ask them where a football game is won, 99% will say "football is won in the trenches"...

the trenches refer to the linemen, and the battle in the trenches is so important for so many things... the run game, pass protection, an accurate pocket, screens, play action, virtually everything needs a proper battle between offensive and defensive linemen in order for it to accurately recreate the on-field happenings of real football...

Problems with Maddens trench battle:
Run Game:
runs up the middle are frustrating in madden. Even if they work, they tend to frustrate... this is because in madden, when you come in contact with someone, you continue to slide and skate around until you find a hole your rb can fit through... outside runs arent much of a problem because the blockers arent bunched up outside... but up the middle you feel like you dont have much control until you break through the pile by sheer luck... this is one of the most problematic aspects of the game, and it's due to the linemen battles not working how they would in real life... if i get tackled in the backfield because someone broke through unblocked, so be it... good play by the defense... but if i get tackled in the backfield because im just sliding around running into my linemen, and someone has time to run all the way around and tackle me, then thats incredibly frustrating, and takes you out of the game. i know madden has made the run game a focus of titles in the past, but it seems they feel they can make a better run game by ONLY focusing on the rb, and how he can move/juke/spin/etc... they never focus on the linemen, which is where a run play is truly made...

Proper Pocket:
when a qb drops back, most plays are designed so he drops back x number of steps, and at the right time, he steps up into the pocket... in madden, the pocket never really forms correctly around the qb, and never presents the option to step up... i believe it has something to do with the defense all running their own way, but either way, a proper pocket with room to step up would do tremendous things... the problem is, in real life, a qbs eyes are always downfield... and in madden, with the camera, they can see everything, so the temptation is to watch a little of both, and thats because they need to watch both... if there was a place to step up into the pocket, then they can have their eyes downfield for a good 4 seconds before looking back at the pocket and seeing it collapse, and then deciding to roll out or run one...

Screens:
madden currently does screens horribly... the outside screen (aka the only screen) is done decently, but there is no inside screen... during screen plays, my qb should be able to backpedal a little quicker, and the linemen need to actually get off of their blocks... it shouldnt always work perfectly, and should be able to be sniffed out occasionally, but if its done correctly, it should be a great option to use... as it is now, the screen always floats outside, and it does work, but there is no inside screen where the rb goes right over the middle...

Potential fixes to Maddens trench battle:
Run Game:
if there was some sort of collision detection, it would make the inside run game that much better... that way, your momentum actually slows down, and you can begin to push the pile, or roll out and take the run outside... maybe pro-tak can be utilized to help push the line forward to gain a few yards at least... also, when there should be a hole up the middle, at least make the linemen try and create a hole... its wierd how it's done now, but never feels very accurate...

Proper Pocket:
in the nfl, the d-ends are ridden in a circle around the qb, and as they begin to close in on him, he naturally steps up in the pocket to buy himself more time... from here, he can get rid of it quick, roll out for more time, run for a few yards, or stay in the pocket and hope his blocking is adequate... this is how it should be in madden... maybe only during all-pro will control be placed in the users hands, and any lesser difficulties will automatically have the qb step up in the pocket, but either way, it needs to be implemented correctly, starting with the offensive linement creating a good pocket to step up into...

Screens:
when a screen is over the middle, it often looks like it starts off as a terrible play... the linemen miss blocks, the qb is running backwards, and all around looks ugly... but once he dumps it over the d-linemen coming at him, and the rb turns upfield surrounded by blockers, man, its a thing of beauty... so in order for madden to get this right, the blockers need to know how to do this well... they need to stick the defenders, and then let them go by... the rb needs to block for half a second, then look at the qb who should be ready to throw it... then, the linemen need to find the nearest man to block, and get on him...

Madden does alot of things right, but few of them are on-field... one way to fix this would be to fix the battles up front... with a new line feature, they could eliminate many of the problems people have with the game, and actually make the inside run game something to be feared...

[Bballplaya72]

Re: Why Madden isn't recreating football as best it can (and how they can fix things)

Good post, but I love the pocket tihs year, I dont know what you're playing.

I absolute dominate with QB's like Romo where he's quick enough to step up and make a play with his feet or arm.

[Luca Brasi]

Re: Why Madden isn't recreating football as best it can (and how they can fix things)

The slip screens to rb's seems to work fairly well and is somewhat close to the middle screens that youre speaking of imo.

The biggest thing i would like to see the dev team work on for Madden '11 is the 3-4 D as far as double teaming the NT's, coverting DE's into OLB's and the AI's logic in regards to computer run 3-4 teams.

[s38s38s]

Re: Why Madden isn't recreating football as best it can (and how they can fix things)

The issue I have with the O-Line, is that the blocks don't hold up very long at all, if they fixed this and tweaked "Block-Shedding" for Defensive players we'd see a huge difference in the battles up front.

To me the focus should be on implementing ratings that apply per position instead of such a wide scope as they are currently set...

Example-

QB-THP, THA, SAC, MAC, DAC, THRUN, PA, AWAR, followed by the basics like speed, agi, str

HB-the basics, Power Moves (stiff arm/trucking), Finesse Moves (spins jukes), carry, catching

and so on per all other skill positions, I don't care how well my C, or LG are at catching, or in pursuit just show me position specific ratings...and don't go over board with exaggerated ratings for star players.

[LBzrule]

Re: Why Madden isn't recreating football as best it can (and how they can fix things)

Good post, but I love the pocket tihs year, I dont know what you're playing.

I absolute dominate with QB's like Romo where he's quick enough to step up and make a play with his feet or arm.

Pocket is not what it should be. The edge rushers engage WAY too early. WAY too early. There is no arc running by the OLB's and DE's against the OT's.


One thing he didn't mention which is huge is WR route running and WR vs DB interaction. It is just as bad as the OL vs DL in this game. Then ball trajectory as well.

[LBzrule]

Re: Why Madden isn't recreating football as best it can (and how they can fix things)

The issue I have with the O-Line, is that the blocks don't hold up very long at all, if they fixed this and tweaked "Block-Shedding" for Defensive players we'd see a huge difference in the battles up front.

To me the focus should be on implementing ratings that apply per position instead of such a wide scope as they are currently set...

Example-

QB-THP, THA, SAC, MAC, DAC, THRUN, PA, AWAR, followed by the basics like speed, agi, str

HB-the basics, Power Moves (stiff arm/trucking), Finesse Moves (spins jukes), carry, catching

and so on per all other skill positions, I don't care how well my C, or LG are at catching, or in pursuit just show me position specific ratings...and don't go over board with exaggerated ratings for star players.

While all of this is good, the issue is beyond ratings. The issue is the blocking system itself.

[adembroski]

Re: Why Madden isn't recreating football as best it can (and how they can fix things)

Blocking needs to be reworked, not just from a technical basis, but from the ground up a bit.

Example; currently, we're seeing the same engage/disengage system that's been used since the PS1 days, and while it was fine on previous systems, it's really showing it's age as the game seeks to simulate finer and finer aspects of the game.

For one thing, and 'engagement' is an initial win for the offense. It all but eliminates the suddenly moves that get a guy into the backfield quickly. Those great edge rushers who can pull a sack off out of nowhere by simply blowing bye someone simply don't exist in Madden to the extent they should.

A system based on two objects interacting... rather than two objects temporarily becoming one object... needs to be implemented and a dynamic system of interaction that results in realistic player movement is an absolute necessity.

Furthermore, the AI for blocking needs work. Right now, it's non-existent in the passing game because of meta-game thinking on the part of the engineers. They're so worked up about nano-blitzes that the linemen are simply psychic. There's no intelligence or logic to how they block, they just do, and you've got RTs blocking REs out of nowhere because the system is set up to simply account for every rusher, whether the line should conceivably be able to account for them or not. A player who does not account for his opponent's rushers should be punished by giving up a sack, not bailed out by super-human linemen!

I think there is a fear of asking the players to get directly involved in the blocking game because they don't want to make the game too complex. If this is the case, perhaps there should be a mode that takes blocking out of the player's hands. Sure, he'll have to deal with his line automatically sliding or a back staying in when he doesn't want him too, but that's the price you pay. The rest of us should be able to gain an advantage by knowing how to manage our line, and proper protection should not be an afterthought.

[mmorg]

Re: Why Madden isn't recreating football as best it can (and how they can fix things)

I think there is a fear of asking the players to get directly involved in the blocking game because they don't want to make the game too complex. If this is the case, perhaps there should be a mode that takes blocking out of the player's hands. Sure, he'll have to deal with his line automatically sliding or a back staying in when he doesn't want him too, but that's the price you pay. The rest of us should be able to gain an advantage by knowing how to manage our line, and proper protection should not be an afterthought.

This is what difficulty levels should be for.

Rookie should have it setup where you just select what type of play you want. On offense you can select; Run, Pass, FG, Punt.

Veteran should be a little more advanced, kind of like the select by Play Type screen.

All-Pro should be like it is now.

All-Madden should be an ultimate NFL simulation in regards to scheming and making playcalls and adjustments at the line and it should require you to actually have a set game plan before heading into the game.

Now if they incorporate these changes into difficulty levels then I would gladly pay money to play All-Madden online against other people and hopefully get worked by some people who really know football.

[adembroski]

Re: Why Madden isn't recreating football as best it can (and how they can fix things)

This is what difficulty levels should be for.

Rookie should have it setup where you just select what type of play you want. On offense you can select; Run, Pass, FG, Punt.

Veteran should be a little more advanced, kind of like the select by Play Type screen.

All-Pro should be like it is now.

All-Madden should be an ultimate NFL simulation in regards to scheming and making playcalls and adjustments at the line and it should require you to actually have a set game plan before heading into the game.

Now if they incorporate these changes into difficulty levels then I would gladly pay money to play All-Madden online against other people and hopefully get worked by some people who really know football.

I see what you're getting at, but I'd like to see as much kept separate from difficulty level as possible. As it is, there is a separate option for playbook complexity, and I think it should be kept separate, as I want full control, but don't want the CPU players being given ratings boosts.

[BezO]

Re: Why Madden isn't recreating football as best it can (and how they can fix things)

To add on to the OP's post...

Run Game:

• Engaged blocks need mobility. Until 2 engaged players can still flow towards the play, the run game will be broken.
  
• Real blocking schemes. For example, trap blocking should actually try to influence then trap a d-linemen.

Pocket:

• Not sure how anyone disagrees here, but until DEs get the AI & animations to rush up field and not directly at the OT, the pass rush & pocket will be broken. This is also related to engaged blocks needing mobility. OTs must be able to ride a DE beyond the QB.
  
• Good DTs & NGs need better push up the middle.
  
• Offensive playbooks need to communicate the QB drop for each play so that user controlled QBs know where the pocket will be since it's directly related to the QB drop depth.
  
• There needs to be a pocket depths to match 3, 5 & 7 step drop pass plays.

For both the running a passing games, positioning has to become a bigger part of blocking. Reaching, driving & riding defenders must be added to the animation arsenal. Contain has to be added to defensive AI arsenal... and it must be part of the play call, not an audible.

[BezO]

Re: Why Madden isn't recreating football as best it can (and how they can fix things)

Blocking needs to be reworked, not just from a technical basis, but from the ground up a bit.

Example; currently, we're seeing the same engage/disengage system that's been used since the PS1 days, and while it was fine on previous systems, it's really showing it's age as the game seeks to simulate finer and finer aspects of the game.

For one thing, and 'engagement' is an initial win for the offense. It all but eliminates the suddenly moves that get a guy into the backfield quickly. Those great edge rushers who can pull a sack off out of nowhere by simply blowing bye someone simply don't exist in Madden to the extent they should.

A system based on two objects interacting... rather than two objects temporarily becoming one object... needs to be implemented and a dynamic system of interaction that results in realistic player movement is an absolute necessity.

Furthermore, the AI for blocking needs work. Right now, it's non-existent in the passing game because of meta-game thinking on the part of the engineers. They're so worked up about nano-blitzes that the linemen are simply psychic. There's no intelligence or logic to how they block, they just do, and you've got RTs blocking REs out of nowhere because the system is set up to simply account for every rusher, whether the line should conceivably be able to account for them or not. A player who does not account for his opponent's rushers should be punished by giving up a sack, not bailed out by super-human linemen!

Yeah, this^^^!!!

The auto engage has to go. That's an automatic advantage to the offense that then has to be countered by artificial means.

Wins for a blocker should come in many forms. Engagement, positioning, cutting, driving, riding a defender beyond a play, and the least common... pancaking.

Wins for a defender should come in many forms as well. Hand fighting to avoid engagement, being in the assigned gap, containing, disengaging & penetration.


And overload blitzing has to become a non-cheesy part of the game. The super blocking AI kills most of the defensive fun. A good blitz scheme will create free blitzers. If OTs are coming from the opposite side to make blocks, why blitz?

[adembroski]

Re: Why Madden isn't recreating football as best it can (and how they can fix things)

Yeah, this^^^!!!

The auto engage has to go. That's an automatic advantage to the offense that then has to be countered by artificial means.

Wins for a blocker should come in many forms. Engagement, positioning, cutting, driving, riding a defender beyond a play, and the least common... pancaking.

Wins for a defender should come in many forms as well. Hand fighting to avoid engagement, being in the assigned gap, containing, disengaging & penetration.


And overload blitzing has to become a non-cheesy part of the game. The super blocking AI kills most of the defensive fun. A good blitz scheme will create free blitzers. If OTs are coming from the opposite side to make blocks, why blitz?

Just to be fair, it should be noted that LBz has shown me tape of teams doing exactly that... having a RT come across the formation to pick up the outside rusher outside the left tackle... so it does happen...

However, not every RT can pull it off, and I can guarantee it was in response to something very specific their opponent was doing at that RT had to be assigned to do that before the snap. There's no way you can drop into a normal blocking position, make that kind of read, and come across the formation in time to make a block. This was designed for a specific situation, probably a specific defense, so the way it happens in Madden is really nothing more than a cheat to beat nano-blitzing... which would fix itself if snap anticipation and acceleration were more realistic.