Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

**Valdarez** · 08-30-2010, 10:03 PM

Re: Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

First, you need to play other games in order to get an idea of what is possible in the passing game, and more importantly of how to do a passing game well (APF2K8 is the best I have experienced). Madden is years behind in what's possible, with no indication of improving their passing game despite our pleas, ideas, etc over the last couple of years.

Madden's problem is that passing isn't implemented correctly from an accuracy, ball arc, and speed perspective coupled with the fact that it's been dumbed down to cater to the casual gamer with it's auto-react / attempt to catch any ball regardless of route or where the receiver was when the ball was thrown.

As for controlling where the ball goes, it's one of the items I wish didn't exist in any football game as it's what usually leads to exploits or issues with AI coverage. Until they prove they can get basic coverage working correctly, there should be no major alteration of the balls path once it's left the QB's hand.

**Joborule** · 08-30-2010, 10:07 PM

The Throw Stick; total control passing

The Throw Stick; total control passing

Following the direction of NHL and NBA Elite up in EA Canada, Madden NFL can change the passing game by putting full, manual control of passing in the users hand via the right stick. The users will have no limitations on where they throw the ball, the accuracy quality of the throw, and the power, both in throw type and distance. It will eliminate the need for icon passing, which can lead to user errors at times. The user intends to throw to one receiver, but presses the wrong button, and passes to a different receiver. With this total control passing system, where they aim the ball, is where the ball will go. It also reduces the need for button input during play.
When in passing mode, no icons will appear on the screen for receivers, seeing as this isn’t icon passing. Moving the quarterback for the dropback remains the same with the left stick, as this should never change no matter what is done in the future. When you want to throw to a receiver, and wish to do a bullet pass, pull back on the right stick 180° RELATIVE to the intended target and quarterback angle, then push the stick forward on the same 180° angle for the release. To do a lob pass, it’s the same mechanics, except holding L1/LB before starting the throw.

The pull back is for the distance power up and aim. The further the throw, the longer it takes quarterbacks to release the ball. This is where strong arm, quick release quarterbacks have an advantage, as their power up will be faster. The aiming of the ball is done invert style by the pull back because pushing the stick forward on a 180° angle affects the accuracy and release. Quarterbacks with great accuracy will have a forgiveness buffer when pushing the sticks forward, while lower accuracy quarterbacks will have less forgiveness. The reason for aiming the ball on the pull back relative to the receiver and quarterback position is because the quarterback is not always going to be throwing from dead centre of the football field. They may be on a side of the pocket, or rollout towards the sidelines. Throwing to your wide receiver changes if you’re in the middle of the pocket, or near the sidelines.

The red dot represents the intended ball spot placement. The white line represents the stick movement to aim at the intended spot. Notice in the second image that the stick diagram is closer to the left, which is why the angle of the line is different.

This is the accuracy region for two different quarterbacks with different accuracy. The green region represents perfect accuracy (100%-95%), yellow is moderate accuracy (94%-80%), orange (79%-50%) is hazardous accuracy, and the red outside zone is the danger zone/horrible accuracy (-49%). The left image is of a quarterback that has a better accuracy attribute then the quarterback to the right, hence more room for error.

Now, this could be pretty difficult to do without visual feedback on where the ball is projected to land, so a cursor icon should show up that represents where the ball should land when thrown. While powering up the throw, the cursor would distance itself from the quarterback and go up the field. The more power in the throw, the further the cursor goes obviously.
The push forward on the sticks in required in releasing the ball. If the user just pulls back but don’t push the right stick forward (releases stick), the quarterback will do a pump fake. This can allow us to have more depth and control in how to do out pump fakes, since you can pump fake towards a certain receiver rather than the centre of the field.

Now a quarterback just can’t have controls for passing solely. They’ll need to be able to scramble, or evade tackles. This is where the other triggers and buttons come to place in being modifiers. Holding down X/A will activate evade modifier, where you can hold down those buttons and move with the left stick to make an evade move. To scramble and make juke/truck stick manoeuvres behind the line of scrimmage, press the ole sprint trigger R2/RT to be in scramble mode. Too throw the ball would require pressing down R2/RT again to get back into passing mode. Speaking of which, if the user is throwing on the run, accuracy buffer should shrink since accuracy on the run isn’t as great obviously. The degree it shrinks depends on the quarterbacks throwing on the run rating.

Also remember that playmaker feature from Madden 2004, which allowed you to lead and direct receivers when rolling out? I’m not sure if the feature is still in the game, but that should be able to fit under this control scheme by holding R1/RB and moving the right stick in the direction you want the receiver to go.

Throwing the ball away to the sidelines can still be done by pressing R3. Thus you can avoid the whole power up drawback and just let that sucker fly off. With this passing system through, it’ll allow the user to throw the ball away anywhere on the field. So they can avoid intentional grounding, but run the risk of interception if throwing in field.

In concept, I think this is a cool system. However, this can be very difficult to execute in game and may not have a very simple “pick-up-and-play” controls that is required. However if this control scheme is easy enough to execute and understand (execute and master are different), it could be a quality change to the passing game. To help users get more use to the feature, it should have an assistance slider and system in place. Thus a user on rookie or pro skill level or even higher can get more experience (or preference) with the feature by having some assistance for aim, accuracy, and power.

Pros:
· Gives users full ball placement control
· Creates route based passing
· Limits controls to sticks and trigger buttons, less thumb movement between sticks and buttons
· Responsive/reactive controls to user input; rewards good control/skill
· More control over pump fake
· Playmaker control, while maintain quarterback evade
· Brings more skill to playing quarterback
· Combats ‘cheese’ style play. I.E run in backfield, rollout to sidelines, throw deep bomb to other side of field easily. Stresses more proper style of play
· Very fresh passing experience

Cons:
· May not be user friendly initially, could have a very difficult learning curve, even with assistances system
· Powering up throws in a very fast timeframe for short-medium distance throws could be challenging
· Passing to one receiver when there is a crowd of receivers (crossing routes, double ins) could be an issue

**Joborule** · 08-30-2010, 10:08 PM

The Throw Stick + Vision Cone; total controlling passing combined with quarterback aw

The Throw Stick + Vision Cone; total controlling passing combined with quarterback awareness factor

Ah yes, the vision cone. Like it or not, it defiantly addressed a very big issue with human quarterback play. There where disadvantages in having a player with all the tools, but no toolbox behind centre. It gave big incentives in having a quarterback like Peyton Manning and having to keep him by giving up big bucks in franchise mode. You couldn’t cheat and just draft a kid with a big arm and decent accuracy for bones as your starter in your super bowl winning season...well you could, but it was much more difficult then with an established QB...

In order for a football game to be a true football simulation, I can’t see how not having awareness/vision matter for human users be left unaddressed since it such a major part of a quarterback skill in real life football. In other sports games, the awareness factor isn’t as big since players that are elite is generally because they have superb athletic ability that does most of the talking, and skill attributes can manipulate their play well enough. In football though for the quarterback position, you’re only an elite quarterback if you can read the field and handle the blitz well. If you don’t have that and you’re not Michael Vick in his earlier years, you’re not going to make much noise.

I don’t really understand what there was to dislike or say was gimmicky in the feature. It was an authentic feature that realistically reflected QB field vision, was very simple and easy to use once you’ve got the hang of it, and didn’t add anytime really to scanning the field and throwing to a receiver. It also allowed quarterbacks to read off and mislead the defense on where the ball is going. I don’t buy that it added precision milliseconds and lead to more sacks unjust sacks. It should lead to more sacks, for QB’s that have less vision, because that was the point.

You can argue that you already have to watch for the blitz and find the receiver, so why place even more disadvantage on the user? Well non elite quarterbacks can’t see the field like Manning or Bress, so they have less room to escape sacks like those two could. This should be replicated, so therefore there should an disadvantage and advantage in use of certain QBs. Quite frankly, those that were against the feature I think should suck it up and stick with it until they get more use to it. It’s better then what we have now and made more attributes matter. I would think amongst the consumer group, both hardcore and casual gamers, the vision cone would be better to have in the end. I was disappointed that EA didn’t stick to its guns and let it have more of a chance of gaining approval. But with the direction Madden was heading at that time, I guess it wasn’t going to get much of a chance.

Anyway, if this was to make a return, along with the throw stick, the passing system would pretty much have all your bases covered. Full control in passing, while giving tier levels between all quarterbacks. There would be a tremendous advantage in having a Peyton Manning or Drew Brees, compared to having a Matt Leinart or Brady Quinn. Again, you couldn’t just focus on the passing ratings alone and have to give a strong look at quarterback vision rating.

To move the cone while in passing mode with the pass stick, the user would hold down L2/LT and move the right stick left or right. There probably wouldn’t be a cone lock system during play since there is no icon player designation lock. A lock could be initiated before the snap however on the primary receiver or another received selected, whether it’s by icons or something else in coach view. After the snap you would be able to move to cone, taking it off the auto lock.

Pros:
· Gives merit for awareness/vision attribute for user controlled quarterbacks
· Creates separation between elite, good, average, and mediocre quarterbacks
· Let’s defense read quarterback, as well lets quarterback trick defense
· Brings even more skill to playing quarterback

Cons:
· Adding to already potentially complex throw stick, could make it even more inconvenient to use.
· Community reception split. Many would not be in favour for return of feature.

This system is one suggestion in trying to rejuvenate passing in football games, and it may not be all that feasible and suitable for the Madden gamer, but it does open up control to the user much more. Regardless if anything is done to change the ways of throwing the ball, I do stress that the vision cone gets a bad rap and I strongly believe it should make its return, or something close to it, so awareness becomes more important once again. Like I said, when quarterback vision is such an important fundamental of football, I think it’s better to have the feature, rather than be without it.

**Joborule** · 08-30-2010, 10:19 PM

Re: Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

Originally posted by Valdarez

First, you need to play other games in order to get an idea of what is possible in the passing game, and more importantly of how to do a passing game well (APF2K8 is the best I have experienced). Madden is years behind in what's possible, with no indication of improving their passing game despite our pleas, ideas, etc over the last couple of years.

Madden's problem is that passing isn't implemented correctly from an accuracy, ball arc, and speed perspective coupled with the fact that it's been dumbed down to cater to the casual gamer with it's auto-react / attempt to catch any ball regardless of route or where the receiver was when the ball was thrown.

As for controlling where the ball goes, it's one of the items I wish didn't exist in any football game as it's what usually leads to exploits or issues with AI coverage. Until they prove they can get basic coverage working correctly, there should be no major alteration of the balls path once it's left the QB's hand.

The AI seems to be shredded pretty easily currently even without the depth user control. :P

This is just food for thought on what could be done to passing in the future. Although Maddens' system has some downfalls compare to other game, the main point I was trying to present is that passing has been the same for so long, that perhaps Madden should try to change it around for the better if it's possible? It can deal with these accuracy and ball arc issues while doing so.

But that's just for the quarterback. The whole system, including DBs and WRs would have to be worked on to make it all work realistically. I understand though the lack of faith that they'll actually make receivers reactions to the thrown balls much more realistic. The game helps fix mistakes that a casual gamer may make, even on the high skill levels. That creates issues for defence, as well on offence.

**roadman** · 08-30-2010, 10:38 PM

Re: Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

I not opposed to change for the better, but I'm at the stage in life where I don't know if I want to spend time in the practice area and try to get comfortable with a new passing system.

If I wasn't married and 20 yrs younger, I'd probably be all gung ho about this suggestion.

I know I'm the exception and not the rule in the age dept.

**RGiles36** · 08-30-2010, 10:48 PM

Re: Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

First, I imagine this thread will end up in the 'thread graveyard' aka the wishlist forum :P.

Total control passing is good in thought and I've even suggested it several years ago. But I think it would be difficult to make something like this function without some form of icon. What if two receivers are in the same viscinity? Yeah, they could do move the camera like Backbreaker -- but what about those of us who do not want the on-field experience? I want to play the game and manipulate the results, but I don't have the desire to feel like I personally am in the middle of the field.

And by no means am I attempting to poke holes in your idea. I'm all for any revolution/discussion on the passing game.

**RGiles36** · 08-30-2010, 10:55 PM

Re: Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

Funny you make this thread today. I was going to do one on tweaking the passing game. In short, I want the precision/lead to be more responsive. If I'm controlling one of the more accurate QBs, I want the ability to throw high & inside/outside and low inside/outside. And I want receivers to react accordingly.

Precision passing is there currently to an extent, but the game has the tendency to take over if you lead in the wrong direction. I don't like that too much LOL. If a receiver is running to the left and I lead right, I'd like to see the pass go behind him and/or have the receiver make an awkward adjustment. That's user control! Instead, it's almost like not leading at all.

Tweaking precision passing is not all that radical a change, but it's probably a more realistic expectation for the short term. I'll probably come with a more well-put thread or blog in the near future in hopes to grab a dev's attention.

**mr_president** · 08-31-2010, 07:09 AM

Re: Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

they could just copy the nfl fever systems of read and lead or their trigger passing system.(both of fevers systems gave complete control to he user). those dev. had great ideas. they can go back to sega sports football from 94 and 95(joe montana football and deion sanders prime time football) and use that as a blueprint....but Val is correct there is so many other things that need to be corrected before they can change it.

**lofeazy** · 08-31-2010, 10:34 AM

Re: Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

Thats a very good ideal Jobo.(I like it.)Like i said in the vision cone thread in madden you don't have to look at the TV screen to complete a pass.

**Joborule** · 08-31-2010, 12:31 PM

Re: Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

Originally posted by rgiles36

Total control passing is good in thought and I've even suggested it several years ago. But I think it would be difficult to make something like this function without some form of icon. What if two receivers are in the same viscinity? Yeah, they could do move the camera like Backbreaker -- but what about those of us who do not want the on-field experience? I want to play the game and manipulate the results, but I don't have the desire to feel like I personally am in the middle of the field.

This is something that I've considered, but in the end may not really be much of a problem. You're passing the ball to a spot on the field rather than passing to the receiver directly (unless assistance factors in to help aim the throw). So the receivers will react accordingly to where the ball is going. If it's at a spot that is more playable for the receiver up high, then the receiver on top will react to the ball. Only time it may not go to intended receiver is if the ball is thrown on a low enough arc that the receiver underneath jumps up to make a play on it.

And by no means am I attempting to poke holes in your idea. I'm all for any revolution/discussion on the passing game.

It's just food for though since it's a farily radical idea, so like I said, it may have holes and may work for football gaming. As mention by roadman, many whom play Madden are of middle age, and don't have time to spend a large amount of hours to learn how to play the game properly and such. That can be a big deterrent against this feature even if it is feasible to put in game. Games should be farily easy to catch a grasp on rather then it being a several day learning experience.

**lofeazy** · 08-31-2010, 01:26 PM

Re: Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

Originally posted by Joborule

It's just food for though since it's a farily radical idea, so like I said, it may have holes and may work for football gaming. As mention by roadman, many whom play Madden are of middle age, and don't have time to spend a large amount of hours to learn how to play the game properly and such. That can be a big deterrent against this feature even if it is feasible to put in game. Games should be farily easy to catch a grasp on rather then it being a several day learning experience.

Trust me you want people to go into the practices mode.If you want a pick up and play game just leave madden as is.

I know guys who learned NFL fevers passing system and AP2k8 who were married with kids and help coach there kids sports teams and work.If these guys can do it I know other people can.Its up to them if they want to go into to practices mode.If not they can learn pass while they play.

**adembroski** · 08-31-2010, 02:12 PM

Re: Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

While I think this write up is great and the idea isn't bad, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Other passing systems have existed. Madden's old window passing, Tecmo's cycling through recievers, John Elway's target placement, etc., but sometimes the simplist solution is the best, and I don't think Madden's passing mechanic is in any need of an overhaul. The system is intuitive to anyone who knows their controller layout, and it allows for very quick decisions.

As for awareness, I think the vision cone is a case of over-design. Awareness can be implimented very easily by simply adding small under-the-hood mechanics to favor high awareness QBs and hurt low awareness QBs. For example, if I make the stupid decision to throw it into triple coverage, a high awareness QB might make a slight adjustment, making sure to put the ball a bit high and wide, in a general area where if anybody can get too it, it's the receiver, but it's likely going out of bounds or something, where as a Low AWR qb will just throw it right into the crowd.

Another way would be to have defenders react slightly slower to higher AWR QBs, representing their ability to "look off" that defender.

There are plenty of ways to represent AWR in an abstract way that makes having a high AWR qb better than having a low AWR qb, and they don't need to unnecessarily place a greater mechanical burden on the player.

**bluemax** · 08-31-2010, 05:57 PM

Re: Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

I really like the idea, if we look at nhl 07 there was a similar sentiment of "why change if it aint broke" but if we look now it was worth the gamble because imo it is the best sports game now. So while I`m actually enjoying Madden 11 I`m open to this idea of total control cause I think we are in need of a shakeup in the football genre.

**LiquorLogic** · 08-31-2010, 07:00 PM

Re: Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

While I'm all for total control passing, I think your idea is too difficult. It would be hard be accurate while making quick decisions.

A read and lead system, which was in NFL Fever, is more practical and will allow the user the same amount of control.

You would still use icons, but you wouldn't use them to throw the ball. The icons would used to allow the QB to lock onto the WR, and another button could be used for throwing the ball; You would tap it for a lob, and hold it down for a bullet. You would still be able to throw the ball where ever the cursor is; however, for out routes and other timing routes, if you simply locked on to a WR and pressed the button to throw the ball before the WR made his break, you would throw it to where he's at and not where he's going. To anticipate routes, using the read and lead feature will be necessary.

Here's how it could go: You as the user would press button of corresponding icon look a WR, and you would tap or hold the button, maybe one of the shoulder buttons, to throw it to the receiver. To lead the receiver, you would move the right stick and where ever the cursor is, is where the ball will land, and again accuracy ratings will affect that to. It may not go exactly where you pointed the cursor if you're playing with, let's say, Micheal Vick. If you're playing with Brees, unless he's under pressure or his feet aren't set, the ball will generally go where the cursor is.

Depending on the QB's arm strength and how hard you throw the ball, you will have different limits on how far away the cursor can be from the QB. All QBs can throw the ball far enough to complete a streak route, but all of them can't throw the ball 45 or 50 yards on a rope. If the cursor is 75 yards away and you throw a bullet, the ball won't reach the cursor. You'll have to know you're signal caller more than ever before.

You would control the height the pass the same way you would in reality. Let's say a WR is running a 10 yard stop pattern, if the QB wants to throw it hard and high, he's actually going to throw the ball more than 10 yards. If the WR were to miss the ball entirely, it would probably travel 15 to 20 yards. If you're throwing the ball soft, on a fade at the goal line, and the WR is, let's say, is ten yards away, you still going the throw the ball more than 10 yards, but that distance would be less then if you were refiling it to the WR.

Awareness would control how long it would take for the QB to come off one WR and lock on to the next. P.Manning would lock on pretty quick; David Carr wouldn't be able to do so as quickly giving the user less time to make reads and thus making Awareness, for QBs, relevant again.

Jobo's M12: Total Control Passing; revolutionizing passing

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