Is the wildcat cheesy?

[Bullet Sponge]

The OD I'm in is for sim-style players, and we're very strict about making sure people adhere to the bylaws/house rules (as well as we can anyway). We have a new guy using USC who is great guy, but after his last user game we realized he's running the wildcat formation about 80% of the time.

He averaged 15 yards per carry against Oregon State, and then 12 per carry against Notre Dame (the user game) although he still lost. Both those teams feature B-rated defenses while USC is an A-rated offense.

That seems like an exploit to me. How could you average 12-15 YPC against decent defenses unless you'd found some crack in the CPU's AI armour?

[calbears7]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

heres my two cents. When I first read your post I said not cheese but then I saw that he runs it 80% of the time and I think thats cheese. but I have never seen a real exploit with the wildcat. U think its a valid formation but is not meant to be run that often. What I am basically saying is that In an online dynasty with my friend we have this thing called "stat cheese" where its called cheese if your stats look unrealistic after your game. Because we both play an all CPU season and then hope to meet in the Title game so its very easy to boost your stats all season long. which we dont allow because we want to see the true heisman winner. So i would say this is "stat cheese" because he runs it so many time. but as for it being an exploit cheese I dont think it is, what I have seen with the wildcat is that its feast or famine and with a fast guy at wildcat QB it could be dangerous

[Ramminyou]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

Let me start off by telling you what I think cheese is really supposed to represent in sports video games. Actually, let me start off by telling you what I don't think it is. This is going to be long, so you have been warned.

For starters, "cheese" doesn't mean you run a style of play (be it play-calling or situational decision-making) that the real team doesn't run. For instance, if you had said "USC doesn't run Wildcat this much, therefore he is cheesing!" I would have definitely disagreed with that assessment and suggested that it doesn't matter what the "real" team does, since one of the major appeals of these games is to run a football team the way WE want to run it. But you didn't go that route so it doesn't apply much here.

I also don't think "cheese" means you are really good at the game and understand how to be extremely successful against the CPU or even ill-equipped Users. This goes to the "stat cheese" that calbears mentioned. I don't believe you should punish someone for having exaggerated numbers based on the existence of those numbers alone. It is very easy to know how to beat the CPU. After a while, you know what plays work and what plays don't. You become able to recognize what the CPU is doing and when they are doing it. Unless the difficulty or sliders are very heavily weighed against you, it's very easy to pummel the lesser or equal teams. To punish someone for this because their stats seem too high is to put an unfair restraint on them, and encourages people to play the game in a way that makes them less effective.

This brings me to what I think "cheese" is. Cheese is an inherent flaw in some part of the design that rests just below a glitch, but essentially renders a part of the game too strong or too weak. Let me give you an example. In an Old Gen Madden (maybe '04 or '05), there was a pass play out of trips that left the inside guy of the Trips WRs open every time in the flat. Basically, he would run directly to the sideline while the outside two receivers would run quick slants inside. That inside receiver was always open enough for a good 8+ yards because: if you had a CB out in Cover 2, he would immediately engage the far outside receiver and ignore the inside one; if you had cover three your flat defender would not get there in time; if you had a DB in man on that receiver, the DB would always back up first (even if you had man under) before he pursued, leaving the WR open for a catch and several yards.

I consider this cheese because the only way to stop it was to manually control a defender and move him over before the snap (b/c if you wanted until the snap, the CPU would take him back a bit before you moved the stick over). The problem with this is that it left you too vulnerable to a throw over the middle, obviously. In other words, doing nothing left me too vulnerable, and doing the only thing I could think of left me too vulnerable. This was a cheese play because it took advantage of poor programming logic and exploited it.

In conclusion, I don't think this guy's use of Wildcat is cheese unless you determine he runs plays which are impossible to defend unless the User manipulates his D in such an unusual way that it makes him too vulnerable to other plays that can easily be audibled into. The plays have to make him nearly unstoppable, not just hard to stop. I'd say the fact that he lost the User game makes that a hard description to fit here just on the face of it. But if it still bothers you and your users, I'd say investigate his play style yourself and see the plays he runs and how they get their success.

[JBH3]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

^ Holy novels batman!

Wildcat Cheesy? I can't seem to get anything out of that formation with exception to a WR sweep play. Whenever I get a Direct Snap to the HB I'm typically stopped in the backfield unless I make the first tackler miss...which is a crapshoot.

[Eski33]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

Cheesing is using plays that exploit the weaknesses in the game. The reverse pump fake, a glitch and cheesing. Using Pryor to scramble all over the field knowing that it will suck in AI defenders only to hit a wide open receiver is cheesing.

I understand some of the OD's bylaws but I disagree with most of them. We had a guy in our OD that threw every down. Is that cheesing? No, it was his preferred style of play. Oh, and he lost a lot. Why? No balance.

I have played guys online that never punt. Yeah, they lost too because the risk / reward a majority of the time went in my favor.

I agree that most OD's want realism. They don't want someone going for it in unrealistic situations. However, using the option every down or the Wildcat is not cheesing. Regardless of the school, if a person is comfortable running out of these formations / running style, I think it makes for interesting matchups and strategy.

[NoDakHusker]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

I wouldn't really say it's cheesy. If that's his style of play, then so be it. MAYBE he's just really good at it, what's he going to do? Dive after running 3 yards to keep the stats real or take it to the house when he has the chance?

Just because someone is successful at something doesn't make it cheesy. UNLESS he is using one play repeatedly that can't be defended, I don't see the problem here.

[Bullet Sponge]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

Wildcat Cheesy? I can't seem to get anything out of that formation with exception to a WR sweep play. Whenever I get a Direct Snap to the HB I'm typically stopped in the backfield unless I make the first tackler miss...which is a crapshoot.

Thanks for all the input so far. The above statement is true for me mostly, as I haven't found Wildcat all that great, but the formation he is running seems to be one (I think out of multiple run?) that is has a tight line formation, with the RB at the QB spot in shotgun and a blocker on either side, each look to be facing the sideline.

[BlastX21]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

I agree with calbears. At first I thought using the wildcat as an important part of an offense was fine, but 80% is too much, especially with that kind of success.

[Johnny "Too Tall"]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

I'd have to say its pretty cheesy to run the wildcat 80% of the time. All this talk about people can do whatever they want, they should do what is successful, even if its unrealistic and disrespectful to your opponent, because they paid 60 bucks for the game. What is wrong with restraint? Playing the game with some class? Sure its a video game, but that doesn't mean you've entered some lawless world. There's rules, guild lines and general norms in just about every aspect of life, why should the video game world be any different?

[TomBrady]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

IMO Not cheesy. If his opponents know he'll run the wildcat, then they just have to blitz eight men.

[Ramminyou]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

I'd have to say its pretty cheesy to run the wildcat 80% of the time. All this talk about people can do whatever they want, they should do what is successful, even if its unrealistic and disrespectful to your opponent, because they paid 60 bucks for the game. What is wrong with restraint? Playing the game with some class? Sure its a video game, but that doesn't mean you've entered some lawless world. There's rules, guild lines and general norms in just about every aspect of life, why should the video game world be any different?

If Ronnie Brown could average 15 ypc out of the Wildcat, you can guarantee the Dolphins would run the formation at LEAST 80% of the time. The reason they don't is that the other team can eventually stop it. Forcing someone to play with "restraint" is more disrespectful and less realistic than allowing someone to play how they want. As I've already stated, I wouldn't consider this something that I would ban or at least give a warning for unless I somehow determined that it exploited a real flaw in the game design - one that renders certain plays unstoppable or somewhere very close to it. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with a strategy that is unorthodox simply because the other side might feel uncomfortable in defending it or thinks they should only see the kinds of things they saw last Saturday on TV.

[Johnny "Too Tall"]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

If Ronnie Brown could average 15 ypc out of the Wildcat, you can guarantee the Dolphins would run the formation at LEAST 80% of the time. The reason they don't is that the other team can eventually stop it. Forcing someone to play with "restraint" is more disrespectful and less realistic than allowing someone to play how they want. As I've already stated, I wouldn't consider this something that I would ban or at least give a warning for unless I somehow determined that it exploited a real flaw in the game design - one that renders certain plays unstoppable or somewhere very close to it. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong with a strategy that is unorthodox simply because the other side might feel uncomfortable in defending it or thinks they should only see the kinds of things they saw last Saturday on TV.

Seeing as I've been a dolphins fan all my life and I've watching every game of theirs for years it is hard to argue with that. Dan Henning would probably run the ball every time if he could. But then again Henning is old school like that, and a lot of us (fans) are getting tired of he persistence to run, particularly out of the wildcat on 3rd and 6... The thing is nothing should work 80% of the time.

I don't think its a matter of being uncomfortable it's a matter of it taking away from the experience of your oppononet simply becuase you want to do something that is unorthodox to say the least. When I play people that do these things its not that its more difficult to stop them, its just a complete drag, boring and not representative of the strategy that's involved in football. And when I stop them 90% of the time they quit, which says a lot. Believe it or not, in real life you don't just find a play/formation that works and do that over and over, the idea is to mix it up. I personally would love to see what happens in real life imitated in the game but I guess that's just me.

Do I think it should be banned? Absolutely not. That doesn't mean I approve of it.

[Slaughter4Heisman]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

If hes running it out of the wild Knight in Rutgers playbook you may have to consider it cheese. Against the computer I've averaged over 10 yards a carry with the receiver lined up at QB and the guy coming on the speed sweep. I've used it once against the another user and did the same. I haven't heard near as much success out of the other wildcat playbooks but the Wild Knight is just unreal. The blocking is unbelievable. I had to change playbooks because I couldn't keep myself from running it on key plays in the game. I was using SEC Elites All American sliders. You could easily run the table against the CPU running it but the user I played figured out a stop for it midway through the 4th quarter after 300 plus rushing yards with Ryan Broyles (qb power) and brennan clay (speed sweep).

[Bullet Sponge]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

My guess is it's not the wildcat itself so much as one or two particular wildcat formations. I also tend to think against user teams for the most part you should do what you want, as humans have the ability to adapt to unorthodox tactics. The CPU, however, does not, and a money play that works now, will work forever. Which is really what I'm concerned about. Unfortunately the CPU games are impossible to fully monitor. I brought it up with the user and he said he would be happy to switch playbooks and not use wildcat so it seems it's not going to be an issue. I didn't even insist he did, I was just putting feelers out there and he volunteered to switch playbooks.

[peteykirch]

Re: Is the wildcat cheesy?

It depends on the team, in real life Rutgers ran the Wildcat 13 times last week.