What makes a Packer different than a Rocket?
 

Something that we, as message board posters, have long been clamoring for is the idea of player seperation. Spread the ratings, make each player "unique." Madden has made solid progress in this regard, the ratings stretch and the incorporation of the new locomotion did change the game. However, to me, that change wasn't drastic enough.

What this thread aims to do is answer the question in title. What seperates a (Green Bay) Packer from a (Toledo) Rocket? IE, what changes at each level of football.

The simple answer is size and speed, which is only partially true. There are plenty of fast guys and plenty of big guys playing for the Adrian College Bulldogs (D3). In fact, if you go to a bar they probably have an NFL OL sized bouncer. There are also plenty of tremoundous athletes hanging around college campuses, who won't ever sniff the NFL. Just look at the NFL Combine champoins who flameout.

More to the point, what seperates a tremoundous athlete from a football player. Hopefully, attacking this question will lead to a different way to view ratings.

Re: What makes a Packer different than a Rocket?
 

Session 1- The Athletic Stance


Anybody who has played an organized sport, at any level, has learned the athletic stance. In baseball, think of infielders. In baskebtall, its the defender. Volleyball, Soccer/Hockey (goalies), Swimers/Divers. It's all the same stance. Hand placement changes depending on what you're doing, but the lower body is the same. I'll let Vince explain it too you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKN3rvrWyvg

Picture a Linebacker before the snap. Your lineman are in the same stance, just tilted forward with their hand on the ground for leverage.

Getting into a great stance requires a degree of athleticism and strength. It's holding your body in the squat position, or a quasi-bridge. For those who watch high school ball, the kids with the best stances are probably going to be the best athletes.



Vs



This is even more pronounced when you start looking at LBs and DBs. When you watch a high school game, the stances can look sloppy, and a little high. Low level college they start to look better. BCS conference teams, the stances look really sharp. In the NFL, the differences are even smaller. But they still exist. The ability to coil the body into a great stance is a skill.

Re: What makes a Packer different than a Rocket?
 

For lineman, your stance can determine a lot of things, especially how fast you get off of the ball, considering people put different amounts of pressure on their fingers.

Also, for defensive lineman, this could tie into awareness, you can usually tell if an offensive lineman is pass blocking or run blocking by how much pressure they put on their fingers (if you can see their knuckles it's a pass, if you can't it's a run). High schools and low-level colleges might give it away easier, and the others might not notice it, while in the NFL, they hide it easier, and DL spot it easier.

Re: What makes a Packer different than a Rocket?
 

Session 2- Playing in the Stance

Just getting into a real sharp looking stance isn't enough, and it's the first degree of seperation you start to see at the higher levels. You've undoubtedly heard about pad level, maybe even had it yelled at you, and you probably started to drop you head and shoulders. After all, bending over does get your pads down.

What is really meant, is playing in the athletic position.

Lateral Movement



The ND backer is in a pretty good position. He still has some coil in his hips so he can use his legs when taking on that block.


Tackling




Neither player is in the athletic position. The hips are extended, so they lose their leg drive. If the hips are extended, you can't push with your legs to extend them (generating "triple extension" with your ankle, knee and hip, which multiples the force output. Physics stuff, just know it happens).



See how his hips and knees remain bent? This allows him to use the biggest muscle groups in the body (Glutes and Quads) to extend his hips, rather than relying on the upper body wrestling.

Blocking



One is the NFL



This high schooler is not.




85 (on the left) is playing with a good stance. The blcoker is not, his knees and hips are already extended, he is bent at the waist. Note how they have the same "pad level" but with different body structure to achieve it.

Re: What makes a Packer different than a Rocket?
 

What EA has done with player separation still is not satisfying IMO. They have a scale that goes from 12 to 99, but how often do you see a player with a 12 SPD or AGI rating? The basic flaw is that the devs do NOT do proper research into these things. If they took all the 40 times or verticals or whatever stat they had and measured the distribution of those times they could find out what the league averages should be. The curve for 40s since 1998 is a left-skewed bell curve. The peak is right at 4.60 as the most common time measured. The highest was 4.21 (T. Holliday this past year) and 6.16 is the low. From there you can determine the range between 99 and 12 with the mean point at 4.60. Once 4.60 is set at a number that is reasonable for a SPD rating, you can create a curve that measures each increment. This is what I did at FBGratings...but for every category and piece of scouting data. The key, however, is HAVING that information from a reliable source, which EA does not have (nor probably even considered).

The biggest change at each level of football is the amount of refinement of raw talent that takes place. Anyone can run fast if you have to raw physical talent. But getting off of a jam, reading a coverage, adjusting the route, catching the ball, securing the ball, and then having the vision to find the open field are skills that must be learned. The guys who make it in the NFL as All-Pros have all the raw talent AND the learned skills in balance.

What happens is there will always be raw athletic talents who will try out for the NFL and not make it because their learned skills are less developed. And you will always get your guys with marginal athletic skills and great leaned skills make it. However, for every Emmett Smith or Jerry Rice who had marginal athletic skills and great learned skills there are thousands of players who every year may have great learned skills but don't meet the physical skills to compete at a high level. Most of these players never even get a look by a pro team. So in actuality, you need a combination of athletic and learned skills.

In a nutshell, learned football skills separate the pure athletes from the football players. It's when you have a combination of these things that real NFL stars are born.

Re: What makes a Packer different than a Rocket?
 

Sven, do you think that all the fines from the helmet-helmet-hits is the result of poor pad level?

To that, I'd like to get your take on the hit that Julius Peppers put on Aaron Rodgers that resulted in a $10,000 fine. He came free on the play and it looks like he stayed balanced then got low as he was about to make contact. As a 6'7" defensive end coming after a 6'2" quarterback was there any realistic way to avoid contact with the helmet?

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/guG2vd-uAfY" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="390" width="640"></iframe>

This is the best pic I could find.

Re: What makes a Packer different than a Rocket?
 

Funny you'd bring up stance when, in my personal opinion, stances in the NFL tend to be very sloppy now days, as is tackling. I don't see a committment to fundementals at that level... as though the coachces expect players to have that down by now.

Re: What makes a Packer different than a Rocket?
 

The fines from all the hits are ridiculous. There is no way to avoid helmet to helmet hits. The best way to "fix" that issue is to call a rule that has been on the book forever, Spearing, to the point that coaches have to yank players because of excessive penalties.

The other would be to fine the HC and OC that told the WR to run across the middle. Pretty easy to call a post right into a safety when it's not your body or your paycheck.

Depends on the position. WR and DB's have fantastic stances. LB's are usually pretty good. TE's are usually decent. The OL can do some odd stances (and they are taught that way). DL tend to not get into the stance until the last possible moment.

The more important point is that they can move around in that position. Even if they get caught being lazy at the snap, they can play with a flat back and sunk hips.

The poor tackling has a few issues (IMO).
1) 200 pound DB's vs 260lb TEs, FB and 230 lb TBs. Obviously this isn't going to play out well.

2) More spread offense=more tackling in space, which has always been hard. It's just more common now.

3) They don't tackle in practice, because they wouldn't make it though a season.

4) The "sportcenterization" and searching for the big hits instead of wrap tackles.

Lets not forget that players are significantly bigger today than they were even in the 90s. But, they aren't taller. They're just thicker and stronger. This makes wrapping up a lot tougher just from a sheer mass standpoint. A big, thick 260 lb linebacker tackling a big, thick, 270 lb TE...it's tough to get the arms around the waist.