Computer Defense and Goalies

[bigbob]

I did a search and didn't find anything on any part of the NHL forum.

What is the word on computer defense and goalies for EASHL and OTP play? I felt as if the game out of box was almost perfect with the computers online. The computer defense played defense, the goalies didn't jump 10 feet of of the net on plays that just made you scratch your head. Goalies could actually stop breakaways whenever a player just skated up and made one move to the left without trying.

I feel like after the first tuners, patches etc that they made the game feel just like NHL 10. The computer defense meant nothing if you had a little bit of speed and all you have to do is make a little twitch and they're jumping out of position.

Was it people complaining on EA forums that it was too hard to score on a goalie that poke checked cross crease passes like they're suppose to? ..or maybe those who cried that the defense actually poke checked and stick lifted whenever you got near them like they're suppose to?

Okay, enough with that little rant there. Any word on any improvements of this aspect of the game online? I could careless whenever I play OTP because it's always 5v5 and 6v6 because I play defense and don't need to worry about that but if I'm playing club and it's late and we're playing 2v2, why should we suffer from the defense giving up 5-8 breakaways a game?

Rant over. This was just something boiling up until it finally got to the point where not even a 4-1 lead was safe with 5 minutes left in the 3rd with computer defense.

[Qb]

Re: Computer Defense and Goalies

No EASHL/OTP specific info yet. If you haven't already, read the gameplay improvements producer blog. Should be some stuff of interest to you in there.

[The Visualizer]

Re: Computer Defense and Goalies

Sounds like you are asking about NHL11 EASHL right? If so, the CPU defensemen and goalies are absolute garbage. CPU defensemen can be abused and walked right by with the same simple manual toe drag deke every single time, and the goalies fall for almost every move when you get in close and refuse to cover the short side post even which results in a lot of terrible goals going in, even from impossible angles.

I didn't notice either the D or goalies any better or worse with the tuners, they were bad out of the box and still are. Both areas need to be completely overhauled for NHL12.

[bigbob]

Re: Computer Defense and Goalies

No EASHL/OTP specific info yet. If you haven't already, read the gameplay improvements producer blog. Should be some stuff of interest to you in there.

I guess this was a mix of NHL 11 and NHL 12 here. Sorry about that, I shouldn've been more clear. I more or less wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy about the EASHL and OTP computer defense and goalies. I had done a search for "computer", which was obviously pretty vague, and it seemed to really only pull back sliders in the search. Thanks though, I will definitely check that out.

Sounds like you are asking about NHL11 EASHL right? If so, the CPU defensemen and goalies are absolute garbage. CPU defensemen can be abused and walked right by with the same simple manual toe drag deke every single time, and the goalies fall for almost every move when you get in close and refuse to cover the short side post even which results in a lot of terrible goals going in, even from impossible angles.

I didn't notice either the D or goalies any better or worse with the tuners, they were bad out of the box and still are. Both areas need to be completely overhauled for NHL12.

That was the thing. For NHL 11 EASHL and OTP play, I really felt like that out of box everything was perfect. It took a lot for you to get the computer defense out of position (and keep in mind I'm talking about the PS3 version). Now, the computer defense allows the other team to go on a breakaway BEFORE they turn around out of their back skating to try and stop them and by that times it's already too late.

I've got to be honest and say what really set me over the top was a 2v2 EASHL game where me and my buddy were leading 4-2 with 5 minutes left in the 3rd period and from that point on, the computer defense (while in defend lead and everything set where they would be more worried about playing back) gave up 6 consecutive breakaway goals. That in turns makes me complain about the goalie because all you have to do is pull the stick to the left or right on breakaways and it's almost a guaranteed goal.

[Qb]

Re: Computer Defense and Goalies

I guess this was a mix of NHL 11 and NHL 12 here. Sorry about that, I shouldn've been more clear. I more or less wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy about the EASHL and OTP computer defense and goalies. I had done a search for "computer", which was obviously pretty vague, and it seemed to really only pull back sliders in the search. Thanks though, I will definitely check that out.

No worries about the confusion. Yeah, the CPU skaters are still frustrating to play with. A lot of guys have figured out how to regularly make them look like fools with the R-stick only toe-drag move. If we have five human skaters, having a CPU goalie doesn't bother us too much -- still prefer our goalie of course -- since we usually don't give up too many great scoring chances. But there are always the WTF moments and breakaways when someone gets caught pinching or not covering.

I guess all we can do is hope it's better in NHL12, as this is something we won't know until well after release.

[bigbob]

Re: Computer Defense and Goalies

No worries about the confusion. Yeah, the CPU skaters are still frustrating to play with. A lot of guys have figured out how to regularly make them look like fools with the R-stick only toe-drag move. If we have five human skaters, having a CPU goalie doesn't bother us too much -- still prefer our goalie of course -- since we usually don't give up too many great scoring chances. But there are always the WTF moments and breakaways when someone gets caught pinching or not covering.

I guess all we can do is hope it's better in NHL12, as this is something we won't know until well after release.

Yeah, that's why I play OTP a lot more then I do club anymore. At least when I know I'm playing defense, they other team isn't going to get a breakaway chance and even if it's a 2 on 1 chance, unlike the computer most of the time we know where the puck is going to go, either a cross crease or a glitch shot.. so it's easy to stop.

[plaidchuck]

Re: Computer Defense and Goalies

Well as far as the AI goes there's always going to be moves to fool the AI no matter how good it is. However, if they could find a way to encourage more 6v6/5v5 it would go a long way in alleviating this problem. Hopefully if the AI gets the improvement they tout every year this could be less of an issue.

That being said they need to be more conservative with the online tuners, it seems like when they change something it nerfs certain attributes (speed, acc, etc.) or makes the goalies suceptible to shots from a certain angle.

[bigbob]

Re: Computer Defense and Goalies

Well as far as the AI goes there's always going to be moves to fool the AI no matter how good it is. However, if they could find a way to encourage more 6v6/5v5 it would go a long way in alleviating this problem. Hopefully if the AI gets the improvement they tout every year this could be less of an issue.

That being said they need to be more conservative with the online tuners, it seems like when they change something it nerfs certain attributes (speed, acc, etc.) or makes the goalies suceptible to shots from a certain angle.

I would say the defense's awareness probably gets nerfed. The biggest problem I see is that the defense will not attempt to defend someone until they're already beat.

[Qb]

Re: Computer Defense and Goalies

On the subject of defensive awareness of CPU teammates... I think a big part of the problem stems from the AI reading & reacting to the human players. If humans move out of position -- at least according to the AI logic -- the CPU player(s) will attempt to cover for them. I believe this is why we see our AI teammates not playing according to the strategies or doing things that don't seem to make sense. Given the generally scrambling nature of NHL OTP, I think the AI has a hard time "keeping up" so to speak.

Try to visualize playing real hockey with a team of players you can't communicate with in any form... not while you're on the ice, on the bench, during intermission or practice, nothing. Your only cues as to what you should do come from reacting to what your teammates are doing. Difficult to say the least, no? Now add to that mix the style of hockey that tends to be played in NHL OTP/EASHL... players racing all over, covering a tremendous amount of ice due to their incredible physical abilities. Remember, you've been instructed by the coach to play a safe, "point A to point B", positional game by your coach. Not a good recipe for success, eh?

I'm not trying to say these problems are due to us not playing good positional hockey or anything like that... for me, the human/AI teamwork issues are more akin to dropping me out there on the ice with solid team of good hockey players playing their own style or system. Even if I have a general idea of how to play hockey and could more or less keep up, there's very little chance of me being consistenly effective.

Does that make sense or am I on another planet?

[pennywise]

Re: Computer Defense and Goalies

On the subject of defensive awareness of CPU teammates... I think a big part of the problem stems from the AI reading & reacting to the human players. If humans move out of position -- at least according to the AI logic -- the CPU player(s) will attempt to cover for them. I believe this is why we see our AI teammates not playing according to the strategies or doing things that don't seem to make sense. Given the generally scrambling nature of NHL OTP, I think the AI has a hard time "keeping up" so to speak.

Try to visualize playing real hockey with a team of players you can't communicate with in any form... not while you're on the ice, on the bench, during intermission or practice, nothing. Your only cues as to what you should do come from reacting to what your teammates are doing. Difficult to say the least, no? Now add to that mix the style of hockey that tends to be played in NHL OTP/EASHL... players racing all over, covering a tremendous amount of ice due to their incredible physical abilities. Remember, you've been instructed by the coach to play a safe, "point A to point B", positional game by your coach. Not a good recipe for success, eh?

I'm not trying to say these problems are due to us not playing good positional hockey or anything like that... for me, the human/AI teamwork issues are more akin to dropping me out there on the ice with solid team of good hockey players playing their own style or system. Even if I have a general idea of how to play hockey and could more or less keep up, there's very little chance of me being consistenly effective.

Does that make sense or am I on another planet?

I think that's a large part of it. The AI is fairly limited in what options it has for any given situation and when the rest of the team is out of position it can result in some odd things happening. There are probably ways to improve this but it's not reasonable to assume the AI will be highly effective unless the rest of the team is doing what it expects them to do.

That said there are things that the AI is programmed to do that are just plain wrong. Like the AI defenseman's overwhelming desire to go into the board play animation when they pick up the puck behind the goal line even if there's nobody else around them.

Or my personal favorite, the "rails" the AI players are stuck on in the neutral zone when you're trying to enter the offensive zone. Example: http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/49346380

Notice the AI center and LW are so stuck on their pre-programmed path that they turn an odd man rush into a one-on-one situation.

There needs to be more situational awareness in the AI, but it's a tough thing to implement. As long as there's improvements year to year I can live with most of the problems in the meantime.

[Qb]

Re: Computer Defense and Goalies

That said there are things that the AI is programmed to do that are just plain wrong. Like the AI defenseman's overwhelming desire to go into the board play animation when they pick up the puck behind the goal line even if there's nobody else around them.

Or my personal favorite, the "rails" the AI players are stuck on in the neutral zone when you're trying to enter the offensive zone. Example: http://www.easports.com/media/play/video/49346380

Notice the AI center and LW are so stuck on their pre-programmed path that they turn an odd man rush into a one-on-one situation.

There needs to be more situational awareness in the AI, but it's a tough thing to implement. As long as there's improvements year to year I can live with most of the problems in the meantime.

Can't argue with these examples. The self-pinning AI D-man is a head-scratcher... I assume the theory is bracing for the hit, but I think any coach would be screaming at them to move the puck around the boards and/or up the wall. The "skate with intent" improvements hopefully will help with the other. Now if only EA could program me to stay onside maybe my linemates would get off my back...