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-   -   AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport (/forums/showthread.php?t=576283)

Big FN Deal 09-12-2012 11:28 AM

AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
 
When June 4th was a hot topic earlier this year, I was on record believing that a new AI system was the reveal due to it's importance for replicating football. We now know that reveal was in fact a new physics engine instead but I think a new AI system needs to be a focal point for M14. My big 3 for next year are AI, player movement and OL/DL aka the trenches. I think a ton of nuances need to addressed as well but these are the major 3.

My reason for starting this thread is because I am concerned that there may be some disconnect or misunderstanding that AI really only matters for gamers that play the CPU but that's false. Football is a team sport of 11v11 so even in a User v User game there are still 20 AI controlled players on the field. I have heard past devs admit that the AI, namely the adaptive AI, is intentionally programmed differently in CPU v User than User v User games and that needs to stop..

I have noticed in Madden 13 that even when User controlling a player, they still try to initially carryout the playart and this should stop too. When someone is User controlling a player, they should be in complete control of that player, according to their ratings. The other 10 AI players should be trying to carryout their duties to the best of their ability, according to their ratings and other parameters.

I hope to see a version of FIFA's AI system in Madden next year, where AI players are actually aware of the skills of their teammates and their opponents. I think this is critical for getting Madden to better represent football as the ultimate team sport that it is. To be able to really put Revis "on an island" to gameplan around stopping everything else, attack a less skilled bench player, run behind my best blocking Olineman, etc. This would also add a dynamic element where a User choosing to freelance, ala Ed Reed, could result in them making a big play or giving up a big play by leaving a confused AI teammate out there hanging or vice versa. In real football, if a player doesn't trust or can't count own a teammate to "do his job" that causes them to try to compensate and it often dominoes from there. User controlled players choosing to ignore their own play calls and ad lib all over the field, without any football strategy should disrupt other teammates and an improved AI could accomplish this.

I don't want this OP to run too long but I want to see this 1v1 POV for making a football game, challenged and defeated. Any notion that an improved AI in User v User games equates to "just watching" needs to be squashed as well. The crazy thing is with Madden, one of the most important User aspects of football, playcalling, has been AI streamlined with Gameflow but yet they seem so reluctant to improve AI on the field and I find that completely backwards. I like the premise of Gameplan and using that to improve the AI playcalling for CPU controlled teams but playcalling should be a main aspect of User control, along with personnel decisions, in a football game.

I am not suggesting that Madden become HC09 on the field but that Madden improve the AI system to the level where the User is a part of the team on the field, instead of a team unto themselves. Football is often referred to as a chess match and in chess I can't "User" a pawn to move like a knight or a rook like a queen. What I can User is moving each piece to best utilize them as a group to win in spite of their individual limitations and that's how Madden should be.

Nunyerbiz 09-12-2012 11:55 AM

Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
 
Well, football is not football... err...American football is not soccer.

Soccer is much more dynamic and on-the-fly then football... Football has a set play that is typically over in 5 or 7 seconds. If human controlled Ed Reed decides to improvise, then so be it, but I'm not sure that most of the teammates would even be in a position to see him doing it, let alone having that somehow confuse them. Sure, there are broken plays in defense when not all the players are on the same page... so I could see perhaps a CB getting confused in man coverage if a human player runs over for an unplanned double team... But that's about the extent.

Quote:

In real football, if a player doesn't trust or can't count own a teammate to "do his job" that causes them to try to compensate and it often dominoes from there. User controlled players choosing to ignore their own play calls and ad lib all over the field, without any football strategy should disrupt other teammates and an improved AI could accomplish this.
Pretty much all of this is subjective, the Bears had an awful O-Line last year... I didn't see Devin Hester deciding to stay in and chip defensive ends. Yes, I know... that was a bit of hyperbole... but I don't think we're going to ever get anything beyond flat out guesswork for something like "trust". I'm not buying the idea that Polumalu deciding to blitz on a play, when his coaching staff openly gives him the green light to freelance, is going to somehow confuse the nose tackle or OLB.

Quote:

Football is often referred to as a chess match and in chess I can't "User" a pawn to move like a knight or a rook like a queen.
I realize this isn't quite meant to be a literal analogy... But football players have full freedom of movement, unlike chess pieces. Sure, you are free to try and 'user' a DT into covering Larry Fitzgerald on a streak route... but it will have consequences all on it's own most likely... without the need to impart some subjective confusion dice roll on your teammates.

RogueHominid 09-12-2012 12:00 PM

Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal (Post 2044155748)
I hope to see a version of FIFA's AI system in Madden next year, where AI players are actually aware of the skills of their teammates and their opponents. I think this is critical for getting Madden to better represent football as the ultimate team sport that it is. To be able to really put Revis "on an island" to gameplan around stopping everything else, attack a less skilled bench player, run behind my best blocking Olineman, etc. This would also add a dynamic element where a User choosing to freelance, ala Ed Reed, could result in them making a big play or giving up a big play by leaving a confused AI teammate out there hanging or vice versa. In real football, if a player doesn't trust or can't count own a teammate to "do his job" that causes them to try to compensate and it often dominoes from there. User controlled players choosing to ignore their own play calls and ad lib all over the field, without any football strategy should disrupt other teammates and an improved AI could accomplish this.

This is the part I don't understand. You can, in fact, put Revis on an island and shift attention to other players quite easily and realistically. You can play cover 1 or 0 and then use the FS to assist in covering other targets. You can call a zone play and then audible the your CB to play man while everyone else plays zone. You can use zone shifts to direct the defense's attention elsewhere. You can also spotlight another target who you think is the second most important threat to take away.

All of that is sound football strategy, and it also depends on ratings. If you play cover 1 or 0 and you've got a bad LB/WR/TE/HB situation, the strategy fails and it's because of the coverage ability of a vulnerable LB. The same would apply to a S you might be assigning to a slot receiver or a better TE.

So those situations are ratings based and the AI plays accordingly while you control another player.

If you go with a man-zone concept, you also take important risks by letting your CPU defenders' intelligence and ability guide their actions. If you put Revis, for example, on his island and you happen to shade toward a potential TE flag route on the same side, your SS better have the range and play recognition and zone ratings to do it or you're toast. I've seen it happen plenty. I've also seen poor coverage LBs get lost and become a liability. I've seen that happen a ton too.

There are plenty of examples on the offensive side of the ball as well. Good run blockers are noticeably more likely to seal the first defender and peal off to the next level. You either have to trust them to do that, or avoid running plays that rely on that level of awareness.

You also have to deal with backs who have trouble in protection. If they're not aware enough or don't have the strength and blocking ability, they become a liability all on their own and all because of their ratings. So you have to scheme around that and try to put better, more trustworthy players in protection.

I think I've addressed each of the examples you've offered. At least in those cases it's clear that the AI isn't as terrible as it's made out to be. I know there are tons of cases when I play as SF where I have to be very careful about who I ask to do what on a given down.

atc43 09-12-2012 12:00 PM

Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
 
I love this post but i believe one problem with achieving it is that the people actually programming the game know very little about the actual intricacies of football.

Take for example a simple Cover 2 Zone Concept with two high safeties. In Madden the cpu Safety is programmed to just simply run the play art.

However in real life Safeties must read recievers routes! Say its the O comes out in a 2x2 singleback formation. The Safety automatically knows that in Cover 2 he must read the inside receiver. If 2 goes out towards the corner(who is also reading #2) THEN the safety must work hard to get over the top of #1 who is now his responsiblity. If #2 goes vertical then the safety's responsibility is #2 mantoman. If #2 goes in towards the lBs then the safety is Free to roam where he sees fit.

This is where Ratings such as play recognition and awareness SHOULD come in to play. If the defender isnt very good in these departments they should bust the coverages a percentage of the time. THEN the physical attributes should come in to play, for instance; to determine if the safety is fast enough to get over the top of #1 who has been let go by the corner. That already happening in the games code, would in and of itself create a chess match in Madden. If the intricacies of Football were present in Madden there wouldnt be a need to make "AI" improvements because the game would simply play off of real life parameters.

Ive taken programming classes and i dont see how difficult it would be to write into the code IF/THEN statements. IF so and so does this a percentage of the time, THEN so and so should do this a percentage of the time. From that statement you then put in calculations for physical attributes, win/loss situations, and factor in user control! AS IT IS, I DONT BELIEVE MADDEN RUNS ON ENOUGH CALCULATIONS. IT LOOKS MORE LIKE IT RUNS OFF OF CERTAIN SITUATIONS, WHICH ULTIMATELY CAN BECOME EASY TO PREDICT

However I dont work on madden so i dont know how their system works....It could be that these suggestions would take up too much code space, or like ive said before they probably arent very well versed in the game of Football.

Then again what do I know :computer:

Nunyerbiz 09-12-2012 12:06 PM

Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
 
I agree with atc43 in the sense that the most important aspect of AI needs to be making the individual players understand their assignment in the play... and/or expanding the depth and realism of those assignments.

RGiles36 09-12-2012 12:12 PM

Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal (Post 2044155748)
My reason for starting this thread is because I am concerned that there may be some disconnect or misunderstanding that AI really only matters for gamers that play the CPU but that's false. Football is a team sport of 11v11 so even in a User v User game there are still 20 AI controlled players on the field.

That's true, but it's not an exaggeration to suggest that AI matters much more for the offline gamer than it does for online. And it matters at various levels from individual adjustments and strategy to playcalling; all of which aren't paramount to the user vs user experience b/c the user himself is controlling all of those aspects of the game.

So speaking for myself, I don't believe that AI bears the exact same importance for both experiences. It matters for both, but it carries more weight on one side versus the other. It's no coincidence that some Madden gamers are carrying on with their online CCMs w/ no hesitation. Those of us who play against the AI are left on our knees, hoping that the offline experience gets some necessary love in both the near and distant futures.

treq21 09-12-2012 12:13 PM

Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal (Post 2044155748)
When June 4th was a hot topic earlier this year, I was on record believing that a new AI system was the reveal due to it's importance for replicating football. We now know that reveal was in fact a new physics engine instead but I think a new AI system needs to be a focal point for M14. My big 3 for next year are AI, player movement and OL/DL aka the trenches. I think a ton of nuances need to addressed as well but these are the major 3.

My reason for starting this thread is because I am concerned that there may be some disconnect or misunderstanding that AI really only matters for gamers that play the CPU but that's false. Football is a team sport of 11v11 so even in a User v User game there are still 20 AI controlled players on the field. I have heard past devs admit that the AI, namely the adaptive AI, is intentionally programmed differently in CPU v User than User v User games and that needs to stop..

I have noticed in Madden 13 that even when User controlling a player, they still try to initially carryout the playart and this should stop too. When someone is User controlling a player, they should be in complete control of that player, according to their ratings. The other 10 AI players should be trying to carryout their duties to the best of their ability, according to their ratings and other parameters.

I hope to see a version of FIFA's AI system in Madden next year, where AI players are actually aware of the skills of their teammates and their opponents. I think this is critical for getting Madden to better represent football as the ultimate team sport that it is. To be able to really put Revis "on an island" to gameplan around stopping everything else, attack a less skilled bench player, run behind my best blocking Olineman, etc. This would also add a dynamic element where a User choosing to freelance, ala Ed Reed, could result in them making a big play or giving up a big play by leaving a confused AI teammate out there hanging or vice versa. In real football, if a player doesn't trust or can't count own a teammate to "do his job" that causes them to try to compensate and it often dominoes from there. User controlled players choosing to ignore their own play calls and ad lib all over the field, without any football strategy should disrupt other teammates and an improved AI could accomplish this.

I don't want this OP to run too long but I want to see this 1v1 POV for making a football game, challenged and defeated. Any notion that an improved AI in User v User games equates to "just watching" needs to be squashed as well. The crazy thing is with Madden, one of the most important User aspects of football, playcalling, has been AI streamlined with Gameflow but yet they seem so reluctant to improve AI on the field and I find that completely backwards. I like the premise of Gameplan and using that to improve the AI playcalling for CPU controlled teams but playcalling should be a main aspect of User control, along with personnel decisions, in a football game.

I am not suggesting that Madden become HC09 on the field but that Madden improve the AI system to the level where the User is a part of the team on the field, instead of a team unto themselves. Football is often referred to as a chess match and in chess I can't "User" a pawn to move like a knight or a rook like a queen. What I can User is moving each piece to best utilize them as a group to win in spite of their individual limitations and that's how Madden should be.

I am so sick of waiting for "next year" every year. I'll be dead by the time this game fixes its major issues

GiantBlue76 09-12-2012 12:21 PM

Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RGiles36 (Post 2044155958)
That's true, but it's not an exaggeration to suggest that AI matters much more for the offline gamer than it does for online. And it matters at various levels from individual adjustments and strategy to playcalling; all of which aren't paramount to the user vs user experience b/c the user himself is controlling all of those aspects of the game.

So speaking for myself, I don't believe that AI bears the exact same importance for both experiences. It matters for both, but it carries more weight on one side versus the other. It's no coincidence that some Madden gamers are carrying on with their online CCMs w/ no hesitation. Those of us who play against the AI are left on our knees, hoping that the offline experience gets some necessary love in both the near and distant futures.

I don't agree with this at (go figure :) ). Why should it matter if it's online or offline? The AI should work exactly the same. The only difference in an online game is that one other player on the opposing team is being user controlled. Why should there be a difference? The AI does not affect the user controlled player obviously, but the exact same code should be executing for all of the other AI controlled players. There should be no separate code that runs to work for offline compared to online, that's what created a lot of the mess they have now to begin with.


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