AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
When June 4th was a hot topic earlier this year, I was on record believing that a new AI system was the reveal due to it's importance for replicating football. We now know that reveal was in fact a new physics engine instead but I think a new AI system needs to be a focal point for M14. My big 3 for next year are AI, player movement and OL/DL aka the trenches. I think a ton of nuances need to addressed as well but these are the major 3.
My reason for starting this thread is because I am concerned that there may be some disconnect or misunderstanding that AI really only matters for gamers that play the CPU but that's false. Football is a team sport of 11v11 so even in a User v User game there are still 20 AI controlled players on the field. I have heard past devs admit that the AI, namely the adaptive AI, is intentionally programmed differently in CPU v User than User v User games and that needs to stop.. I have noticed in Madden 13 that even when User controlling a player, they still try to initially carryout the playart and this should stop too. When someone is User controlling a player, they should be in complete control of that player, according to their ratings. The other 10 AI players should be trying to carryout their duties to the best of their ability, according to their ratings and other parameters. I hope to see a version of FIFA's AI system in Madden next year, where AI players are actually aware of the skills of their teammates and their opponents. I think this is critical for getting Madden to better represent football as the ultimate team sport that it is. To be able to really put Revis "on an island" to gameplan around stopping everything else, attack a less skilled bench player, run behind my best blocking Olineman, etc. This would also add a dynamic element where a User choosing to freelance, ala Ed Reed, could result in them making a big play or giving up a big play by leaving a confused AI teammate out there hanging or vice versa. In real football, if a player doesn't trust or can't count own a teammate to "do his job" that causes them to try to compensate and it often dominoes from there. User controlled players choosing to ignore their own play calls and ad lib all over the field, without any football strategy should disrupt other teammates and an improved AI could accomplish this. I don't want this OP to run too long but I want to see this 1v1 POV for making a football game, challenged and defeated. Any notion that an improved AI in User v User games equates to "just watching" needs to be squashed as well. The crazy thing is with Madden, one of the most important User aspects of football, playcalling, has been AI streamlined with Gameflow but yet they seem so reluctant to improve AI on the field and I find that completely backwards. I like the premise of Gameplan and using that to improve the AI playcalling for CPU controlled teams but playcalling should be a main aspect of User control, along with personnel decisions, in a football game. I am not suggesting that Madden become HC09 on the field but that Madden improve the AI system to the level where the User is a part of the team on the field, instead of a team unto themselves. Football is often referred to as a chess match and in chess I can't "User" a pawn to move like a knight or a rook like a queen. What I can User is moving each piece to best utilize them as a group to win in spite of their individual limitations and that's how Madden should be. |
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
Well, football is not football... err...American football is not soccer.
Soccer is much more dynamic and on-the-fly then football... Football has a set play that is typically over in 5 or 7 seconds. If human controlled Ed Reed decides to improvise, then so be it, but I'm not sure that most of the teammates would even be in a position to see him doing it, let alone having that somehow confuse them. Sure, there are broken plays in defense when not all the players are on the same page... so I could see perhaps a CB getting confused in man coverage if a human player runs over for an unplanned double team... But that's about the extent. Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
Quote:
All of that is sound football strategy, and it also depends on ratings. If you play cover 1 or 0 and you've got a bad LB/WR/TE/HB situation, the strategy fails and it's because of the coverage ability of a vulnerable LB. The same would apply to a S you might be assigning to a slot receiver or a better TE. So those situations are ratings based and the AI plays accordingly while you control another player. If you go with a man-zone concept, you also take important risks by letting your CPU defenders' intelligence and ability guide their actions. If you put Revis, for example, on his island and you happen to shade toward a potential TE flag route on the same side, your SS better have the range and play recognition and zone ratings to do it or you're toast. I've seen it happen plenty. I've also seen poor coverage LBs get lost and become a liability. I've seen that happen a ton too. There are plenty of examples on the offensive side of the ball as well. Good run blockers are noticeably more likely to seal the first defender and peal off to the next level. You either have to trust them to do that, or avoid running plays that rely on that level of awareness. You also have to deal with backs who have trouble in protection. If they're not aware enough or don't have the strength and blocking ability, they become a liability all on their own and all because of their ratings. So you have to scheme around that and try to put better, more trustworthy players in protection. I think I've addressed each of the examples you've offered. At least in those cases it's clear that the AI isn't as terrible as it's made out to be. I know there are tons of cases when I play as SF where I have to be very careful about who I ask to do what on a given down. |
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
I love this post but i believe one problem with achieving it is that the people actually programming the game know very little about the actual intricacies of football.
Take for example a simple Cover 2 Zone Concept with two high safeties. In Madden the cpu Safety is programmed to just simply run the play art. However in real life Safeties must read recievers routes! Say its the O comes out in a 2x2 singleback formation. The Safety automatically knows that in Cover 2 he must read the inside receiver. If 2 goes out towards the corner(who is also reading #2) THEN the safety must work hard to get over the top of #1 who is now his responsiblity. If #2 goes vertical then the safety's responsibility is #2 mantoman. If #2 goes in towards the lBs then the safety is Free to roam where he sees fit. This is where Ratings such as play recognition and awareness SHOULD come in to play. If the defender isnt very good in these departments they should bust the coverages a percentage of the time. THEN the physical attributes should come in to play, for instance; to determine if the safety is fast enough to get over the top of #1 who has been let go by the corner. That already happening in the games code, would in and of itself create a chess match in Madden. If the intricacies of Football were present in Madden there wouldnt be a need to make "AI" improvements because the game would simply play off of real life parameters. Ive taken programming classes and i dont see how difficult it would be to write into the code IF/THEN statements. IF so and so does this a percentage of the time, THEN so and so should do this a percentage of the time. From that statement you then put in calculations for physical attributes, win/loss situations, and factor in user control! AS IT IS, I DONT BELIEVE MADDEN RUNS ON ENOUGH CALCULATIONS. IT LOOKS MORE LIKE IT RUNS OFF OF CERTAIN SITUATIONS, WHICH ULTIMATELY CAN BECOME EASY TO PREDICT However I dont work on madden so i dont know how their system works....It could be that these suggestions would take up too much code space, or like ive said before they probably arent very well versed in the game of Football. Then again what do I know :computer: |
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
I agree with atc43 in the sense that the most important aspect of AI needs to be making the individual players understand their assignment in the play... and/or expanding the depth and realism of those assignments.
|
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
Quote:
So speaking for myself, I don't believe that AI bears the exact same importance for both experiences. It matters for both, but it carries more weight on one side versus the other. It's no coincidence that some Madden gamers are carrying on with their online CCMs w/ no hesitation. Those of us who play against the AI are left on our knees, hoping that the offline experience gets some necessary love in both the near and distant futures. |
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
Quote:
|
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport
Quote:
|
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:51 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.