When will Madden get the ratings right?

[justud]

IMO their ratings are horrible and after reading this http://tinyurl.com/9mqyfv9 and this http://tinyurl.com/74xvdqn i'm ready for a consistent, stats oriented rating system with a team instead of one person. Donnie Moore has screwed up the ratings for too long its time for change in the next gen.

Funny thread where a lot of OS posters lost credibility defending Peyton Hillis 91 in M12. http://www.operationsports.com/forum...aste-test.html

I'm a Giants fan but to me the only guys rated 90 on the squad should be Eli and Snee. too many players rated 90+ in Madden nowadays who had one good year.

[infemous]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

Thank you for joining the 'ratings army'.

We are here to bang the drum for scaled ratings until we actually see them!

[Robcards]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

With Madden Share this year it would be easier than ever to get community made ratings. I'm all for helping to contribute to the cause but it would need to be a group effort of at least 8 people, theres simply too many players and ratings for one guy (*cough*) to do.

[justud]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

glad to hear about you guys doing ratings. Do you know if we'll be able to use them online in our communities?

[sk]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

Getting ratings right is ALL an opinion, thus to answer your question never. Madden will never be able to put out a roster full of ratings that everybody approves of.

People will ALWAYS complain about something.

It's not that easy to provide extremely accurate ratings for every single player in the NFL. To do that, you need to consistently watch every single team in the league, unless you have a team or something but even then to get 32 individuals who aren't homers and religiously follow each team is not easy to find.

[Kushmir]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

+1 to accurate and consistent ratings.

Donnie Moore might be the #1 reason I dont play Madden anymore. Too many knee-jerk ratings based on silly stuff like one play/one big year or Jerome Simpson flipping over a guy for a TD and all of a sudden getting a 99 Jump rating...what? Rate what guys consistently do, not what they've done ONCE. The result good players too good and players rated less than 80 are horrible. Why use a 0-99 scale if only players rated 85+ can contribute?

Krisxsong, EA has the resources for a team like you mention but refuses to do it.

Ratings for active players should not exceed 96, and it should take consistently elite play to get a 90. AP isnt a 90 because he had a good couple of games, its because he gives you 1400+ yards every year an ACL doesn't stop him....and even when it does, he comes back and rushes for 2,000.

[justud]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

Getting ratings right is ALL an opinion, thus to answer your question never. Madden will never be able to put out a roster full of ratings that everybody approves of.

People will ALWAYS complain about something.

It's not that easy to provide extremely accurate ratings for every single player in the NFL. To do that, you need to consistently watch every single team in the league, unless you have a team or something but even then to get 32 individuals who aren't homers and religiously follow each team is not easy to find.

did u read the links I put up? It can be less and opinion and more fact if they have a system like the one mentioned. I dont know about u but im tired of bad ratings that make the game bad.

[Cleveland Rocks]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

Getting ratings right is ALL an opinion, thus to answer your question never. Madden will never be able to put out a roster full of ratings that everybody approves of.

People will ALWAYS complain about something.

It's not that easy to provide extremely accurate ratings for every single player in the NFL. To do that, you need to consistently watch every single team in the league, unless you have a team or something but even then to get 32 individuals who aren't homers and religiously follow each team is not easy to find.

Exactly no way all users will agree with anything they do. The only answer is to let us edit them at all times and give us an option to turn off any systme hindering that ie XP, but it is impossible for them to get it 'right' out of the box as described here.

[NHL_MLB4]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

I always feel DHB is underrated

[stlpimpmonsta]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

Considering the fact that ratings are objective, they will never get them right however I hope they do thembetter in the future.

[gilczbq]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

theres simply too many players and ratings for one guy

[DCEBB2001]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

I do not buy into the whole "Madden ratings are too big for one person" sentiment. To me it comes down to that one guy having reliable data to drive his ratings system, no matter what that is.

Hear me out on this one:

I run a website that rates 24000+ NFL players and free agents. It is a one-man show for applying the ratings. However, the difference between a guy like me and a guy like Donny Moore is the source material and resources. I utilize real NFL scouting data that I am privy to because of my link with NFL Draft Scout. That data drives the ratings. Now, because that data in its raw form is not scaled the same way that Madden ratings are scaled, you have to use data interpolation.

That is where the other resources come into play. I sought expert opinion from NFL scouts, a physics department at a top-5 research university, one of the top-ranked kinesiology departments in the world, and numerous academic articles that have attempted to define the application of athletic traits.

The problem I think we all have with Donny Moore, who only has to rate 3000 players every year (might seem like a lot to some, but to me that is a week of work), is that he does not back up his ratings with data, primary source material, or expert opinion. Instead, it is just a guy watching Youtube videos.

Now, on Youtube you can see how a player moves in his highlights, but you do not analyze every down like a coach or scout would do. You do not take into account (rarely do I hear people say this, anyway) that the outcome of a player is in fact due to 22 players interacting with one another. I often cite the analogy on this site as watching a DeSean Jackson TD catch. Sure you can see him score a TD and think, wow that player is great! He must have superior route running ability, speed, hands, etc. because he just scored this amazing TD.

What you may not consider is the fact that it took recognition of the coverage to adjust a route, good footwork to beat a jam, a perfect throw where only the receiver could catch it, and maybe a false step or two by the defender. Instead what you see is DeSean running with nobody near him and you think "wow, he's gotta be the fastest player in the game." But is this really true?

I have professed for seemingly ages on OS about how speed and acceleration, as well as other attributes, can be quantified. We have data to support this stuff. Please, spare me the "game speed" bologna. Game Speed is usually not attributed to speed at all. Game speed is a nice term given to a player who may lack actual physical talent compared to his top-tier competitors, but makes up for the deficit with good technique and skill. Jerry Rice is the prime example. Jerry ran a 4.57 in the 40. That isn't necessarily blazing for a WR or any other skill position, but it was functional enough. Why? Because Jerry Rice is probably the only player alive who can run a route, any route, at full speed. Even though that full speed may be 4.57 full-speed, it can still allow you to turn a 1 foot cushion from a defender into a 5 yard cushion through a few steps.

Watch this video from the 4:49 mark forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLjgZc0sYIc

See how Jerry Rice created separation so easily? It was not because he was faster or more athletic than those DBs, it was because his technique was perfect. He was able to run routes without having to slow down as much as other WRs and was able to accelerate out of his breaks without being lazy.

So to me, giving a guy a speed boost because he "plays faster" is entirely illogical. We know what these players can run when they are in near-equal testing settings. We also know how to interpret data and interpolate it into useful ratings. The problem with Donny Moore's approach is that he is either ignorant to "real" football evaluation or he does not have the resources to rate players effectively. When have you ever seen him say the words "data", "distribution", "source material", or "interpolation" in a tweet or interview? I think that if a football nerd like myself can get access to solid info to draw ratings conclusions from, a guy whose employer has the backing of a multi-billion dollar business should be able to as well...and some.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

I do not buy into the whole "Madden ratings are too big for one person" sentiment. To me it comes down to that one guy having reliable data to drive his ratings system, no matter what that is.

Hear me out on this one:

I run a website that rates 24000+ NFL players and free agents. It is a one-man show for applying the ratings. However, the difference between a guy like me and a guy like Donny Moore is the source material and resources. I utilize real NFL scouting data that I am privy to because of my link with NFL Draft Scout. That data drives the ratings. Now, because that data in its raw form is not scaled the same way that Madden ratings are scaled, you have to use data interpolation.

That is where the other resources come into play. I sought expert opinion from NFL scouts, a physics department at a top-5 research university, one of the top-ranked kinesiology departments in the world, and numerous academic articles that have attempted to define the application of athletic traits.

The problem I think we all have with Donny Moore, who only has to rate 3000 players every year (might seem like a lot to some, but to me that is a week of work), is that he does not back up his ratings with data, primary source material, or expert opinion. Instead, it is just a guy watching Youtube videos.

Now, on Youtube you can see how a player moves in his highlights, but you do not analyze every down like a coach or scout would do. You do not take into account (rarely do I hear people say this, anyway) that the outcome of a player is in fact due to 22 players interacting with one another. I often cite the analogy on this site as watching a DeSean Jackson TD catch. Sure you can see him score a TD and think, wow that player is great! He must have superior route running ability, speed, hands, etc. because he just scored this amazing TD.

What you may not consider is the fact that it took recognition of the coverage to adjust a route, good footwork to beat a jam, a perfect throw where only the receiver could catch it, and maybe a false step or two by the defender. Instead what you see is DeSean running with nobody near him and you think "wow, he's gotta be the fastest player in the game." But is this really true?

I have professed for seemingly ages on OS about how speed and acceleration, as well as other attributes, can be quantified. We have data to support this stuff. Please, spare me the "game speed" bologna. Game Speed is usually not attributed to speed at all. Game speed is a nice term given to a player who may lack actual physical talent compared to his top-tier competitors, but makes up for the deficit with good technique and skill. Jerry Rice is the prime example. Jerry ran a 4.57 in the 40. That isn't necessarily blazing for a WR or any other skill position, but it was functional enough. Why? Because Jerry Rice is probably the only player alive who can run a route, any route, at full speed. Even though that full speed may be 4.57 full-speed, it can still allow you to turn a 1 foot cushion from a defender into a 5 yard cushion through a few steps.

Watch this video from the 4:49 mark forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLjgZc0sYIc

See how Jerry Rice created separation so easily? It was not because he was faster or more athletic than those DBs, it was because his technique was perfect. He was able to run routes without having to slow down as much as other WRs and was able to accelerate out of his breaks without being lazy.

So to me, giving a guy a speed boost because he "plays faster" is entirely illogical. We know what these players can run when they are in near-equal testing settings. We also know how to interpret data and interpolate it into useful ratings. The problem with Donny Moore's approach is that he is either ignorant to "real" football evaluation or he does not have the resources to rate players effectively. When have you ever seen him say the words "data", "distribution", "source material", or "interpolation" in a tweet or interview? I think that if a football nerd like myself can get access to solid info to draw ratings conclusions from, a guy whose employer has the backing of a multi-billion dollar business should be able to as well...and some.

Sigh -

Reading this made me depressed. This is the kind of thing that someone in charge of ratings at EA should be doing. DCB, have you ever applied for a job at Tiburon? This is what I mean about the difference in talent and mindset at Tiburon compared to the other sports development studios. I bet DM doesn't do ANY of this. It's all about putting in the effort and actually taking it seriously to produce the most realistic results.

[ryan36]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

EA loves DCB lol.

Seriously, this is the problem with a stats driven system.

Different schemes. A guy can have all the tools, and then you trade for him. IRL, he's a great fit for your offense and would become a star. In madden, because he's only had 15 rec/yr he's rated really low. There would be no "accurate" sleepers sans some wonky progression BS.

[msdm27]

Re: When will Madden get the ratings right?

Just a heads up for those who think Madden Share will help with ratings....

It's basically USELESS once you start a CFM!

Because all the incoming rookies would not be graded accordingly, thus being in a great advantage.

I asked J. Looman why rookies were rated so high on madden custom rookie classes and he mentioned that the reason for this was that otherwise rookies would have no shot at competing for starting jobs.

Since the CPU AI doesn't "recognize" that playing a 67 rated rookie 1st round pick with lots of potential might be more benefitial than starting a 75 rated veteran... Madden's solution to this is bump up the start-point ratings for rookies, thus allowing them to start/compete for jobs.

In short, modyfing the ratings pre-CFM would only result in rookies becoming monsters from the get go.