Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS & HoF

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  • luda06
    Pro
    • Sep 2008
    • 572

    #1

    Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS & HoF

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/-ef0-e23MRg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Start at 3:26 for testing methods

    Note: The research here isn't not entirely scientific, nor did I have any intent on making it so.

    In NBA 2K15, jump-shooting field goal percentages are wildly inconsistent on difficulties higher than All-Star. There are a variety factors for this, including shot release timings and player ratings. Furthermore, the actual field goal percentages in competitive matches are weighted heavily towards shot release timings in contrast to how open a shooter is, relative to the defense. Player ratings appear to be a crutch for whenever a user attains a good, but not perfect release. Field goal percentages in NBA 2K15’s “Freestyle” practice mode illustrates the discrepancy between release timings, player ratings, and actual field goal pecentages in the NBA.

    A sample of five players were chosen (Kyle Korver, Wesley Matthews, Klay Thompson, Brandon Jennings, and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope) out of the NBA’s top volume/percentage shooters in catch-and-shoot situations this season. None were chosen in any specific order, but at random, outside of the latter two players (though they still qualify with the other players). Each player attempted at least 100 shot attempts, shooting the ball within 2 seconds of catching it without dribbling (per the NBA’s definition of catch-and-shoot).

    Kyle Korver’s shooting release is smooth and predictable. Not incredibily fast or slow, however a decent player should be able to attain good shot releases using him. However, no perfect shot release timings were attained within 100 shots. Korver converted 38 shots (38%). He also has what may be NBA 2K15’s highest standing 3 point rating at 94. Korver’s actual catch-and-shoot field goal percentage is 56% on 5.6 attempts per game (16 games played).

    Wesley Matthews’ release is definitely the quickest of the five players sampled. However, his release also one of the most predictable in the sample as well. This combination of predictability and quickness enables Matthews as an elite marksman regardless of his 88 standing 3 point shot rating from three point range. He has a fair amount of hot spots on the perimeter, further augmenting his marksmanship in NBA 2K15. 32 perfect release timings were achieved, and Matthews converted 65 of 102 attempts from the perimeter (63%). Matthews is currently shooting 41% in catch-and-shoot situations on 6.3 attempts per game (18 games).

    Klay Thompson has the slowest shot release of all of the players, as his shooting form has him releasing the ball at the apex of his jump, which is compounded further by his two-motion shooting animation. His release is slightly more difficult than Korver’s to predict, but still moderately easy to memorize. Thompson converted 69 of 102 shots with 23 perfect attempts (68%). His standing 3 point rating is 91 overall. He is currently shooting 42% on 6.1 catch-and-shoot attempts per game (16 games played).

    Kentavious Caldwell-Pope has an average shot release timing. However, his release is extremely predictable, due to his elbows being almost perpendicular to the ball when it is time for him to release the shot. He has a standing 3 point rating of 78. He converted 70 out of 114 attempts (61%), with 39 perfectly timed releases. His catch-and-shoot FG% is 38% on 5.2 attempts per game this season (18 games).

    Brandon Jennings also has an average shot release timing. His release is also predictable due to the nature of him using his left hand to gather and shoot the ball, allowing users to quickly identify when the ball is at its apex. There is a frustrating level of difficulty with his release, similar to Korver’s. Regardless of the attempts, attaining an actual perfect timing is much more difficult than the other three players. He was the first of the players sampled, in which he converted 98 of 225 attempts (43%), with one perfectly timed release. His standing 3 point rating is 81, and is currently shooting 52% in catch-and-shoot situations on 2.1 attempts per game (18 games).

    In conclusion, the inconsistent shooting percentages relative to player ratings have lesser relevance to actual shot release timings on the highest difficulty settings. A favorable solution would is to place less emphasis on shot release timings and place greater importance on overall shooting quality. NBA.com now features statistics for players in a variety of shooting situations that are not limited to catch-and-shoot scenarios. It should be possible for Visual Concepts to create baseline percentages for contested and non-contested shots and apply bonuses to certain players who can be considered as statistical outliers.
    Last edited by luda06; 12-04-2014, 12:21 AM.
  • Coach2K
    Hall of Fame
    • Mar 2012
    • 1702

    #2
    Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

    When the shot meter was announced here as the new fad, I specifically questioned the developer in a thread about it pointing out that the real success factor in good shooting was the release 2k assigned to that shooter. And, that many shooters were just too easy to use while other good shooters were just impossible to use as effectively mainly because of the time it takes to just launch the shot or they are to difficult to time. Let's face it, some guys just take forever to set their feet and wind up and even if you could get a good release the defense has contested.

    At the time, I was given the impression that good shooters would be easier to use.

    What you pointed out is that a guy like Korver, one of the best shooters in the game can basically defend himself. You don't really need to worry about him when IRL that guy demands defense and makes the game unfair for a hawks user. Sure he can get around it by not shooting threes with him but that isn't right.

    Your data basically confirms the main problem with 2K this year and that's shot releases continue to be a problem and they are compounded this year by the fact that you can play hours and hours and hours and never luck into one green release with what are excellent shooters even in practice mode on HOF sim.

    I hate to be critical of 2K as I'm probably its biggest fan but I'm very disappointed in so many problems with shooting at the highest level not because it's HOF sim because I can get green releases almost immediately with certain players and none EVER with others just because their releases are screwed up IMO.

    Let's hope the patch addresses it.
    Last edited by Coach2K; 12-03-2014, 11:43 PM.
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    Comment

    • alabamarob
      MVP
      • Nov 2010
      • 3352

      #3
      Re: Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

      The devs seem like smart guys. I am confident they will get this corrected by the end of this month. They know how important shooting is, and it wouldn't make much sense for them to put all this time in creating great gameplay (which they have in 15), and having very good rosters just to let the shot meter/shot mechanics drag the game down. It is irritating right now, but I don't plan on it being a long term issue.


      Great Post. The numbers don't lie, and math is usually always going to point you in the right direction.
      Psn: Alabamarob
      Xbox: Alabama Rob

      Youtube: 2k Hawks

      Settings I play on.
      Minutes: 12
      Difficulty: HOF
      Online or Offline player: Both
      In a MLO: Yes

      Comment

      • Rockie_Fresh88
        Lockdown Defender
        • Oct 2011
        • 9621

        #4
        Re: Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

        So do you guys think they put too much on shot timing on higher difficulties ?

        In older basketball games it was about good shots with good shooters . There was never a guy you wouldn't shoot with because you didn't know his release .

        Just want a discussion ...
        #1 Laker fan
        First Team Defense !!!

        Comment

        • luda06
          Pro
          • Sep 2008
          • 572

          #5
          Re: Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

          Originally posted by Rockie_Fresh88
          So do you guys think they put too much on shot timing on higher difficulties ?

          In older basketball games it was about good shots with good shooters . There was never a guy you wouldn't shoot with because you didn't know his release .

          Just want a discussion ...
          Yes.

          Higher difficulties generally required shot releases to have a more precise timing for "excellent" shots. However, the idea hardly translates into a level playing field for competitive online play or against friends.

          Some teams feature players who naturally have easier shooting motions than others. Yet, in NBA 2K15, the notion of having an easy release is rendered nearly irrelevant, in the case of Korver and Jennings. Users need teams with the right players (such as Matthews or KCP), more-so than actually mastering shot timings.

          Comment

          • KehliahoMauiFootball
            Banned
            • Feb 2014
            • 183

            #6
            Re: Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

            I called cheese when this feature came out... and it has turned out that way. Shot meter had good intentions but the implementation is too susceptible to cheese. 2K14 had some flaws but I'll take that model over this. 2K14 just needed to be tweaked a little instead of rewriting the whole thing imo.

            Comment

            • City_foxx
              Rookie
              • Sep 2014
              • 330

              #7
              Re: Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

              The arguement is solid, and i for one agree a larger window is needed for A or A+ shot selections on the higher dificultys.
              Last edited by City_foxx; 12-04-2014, 03:50 AM.
              Your playing checkers, and im playing chess-

              Comment

              • alabamarob
                MVP
                • Nov 2010
                • 3352

                #8
                Re: Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

                Originally posted by luda06
                Yes.

                Higher difficulties generally required shot releases to have a more precise timing for "excellent" shots. However, the idea hardly translates into a level playing field for competitive online play or against friends.

                Some teams feature players who naturally have easier shooting motions than others. Yet, in NBA 2K15, the notion of having an easy release is rendered nearly irrelevant, in the case of Korver and Jennings. Users need teams with the right players (such as Matthews or KCP), more-so than actually mastering shot timings.
                Your key point is something alot of people are missing. Even if you master korver and some other players release they still will shoot a low percentage. So the shot window for some guys are irrelevant with 2k's current roster shot releases.
                Psn: Alabamarob
                Xbox: Alabama Rob

                Youtube: 2k Hawks

                Settings I play on.
                Minutes: 12
                Difficulty: HOF
                Online or Offline player: Both
                In a MLO: Yes

                Comment

                • jaateloauto
                  Pro
                  • Sep 2009
                  • 743

                  #9
                  Re: Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

                  The system is just incredibly odd. I just tried shooting 3pters on superstar/sim. With Korver I shot 161 times and only got 3 perfect releases. With Millsap I got 36 perfect releases out of a hundred.

                  It seems that with some players it's incredibly hard to get a perfect release. That makes the new shot timing system a big step back.

                  Also I find it incredibly annoying that the players slide their feet over the 3pt line constantly.
                  Last edited by jaateloauto; 12-04-2014, 06:51 AM.
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                  • alabamarob
                    MVP
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 3352

                    #10
                    Re: Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

                    Originally posted by jaateloauto
                    The system is just incredibly odd. I just tried shooting 3pters on superstar/sim. With Korver I shot 161 times and only got 3 perfect releases. With Millsap I got 36 perfect releases out of a hundred.

                    It seems that with some players it's incredibly hard to get a perfect release. That makes the new shot timing system a big step back.

                    Also I find it incredibly annoying that the players slide their feet over the 3pt line constantly.
                    You on xbxox or ps4?
                    Psn: Alabamarob
                    Xbox: Alabama Rob

                    Youtube: 2k Hawks

                    Settings I play on.
                    Minutes: 12
                    Difficulty: HOF
                    Online or Offline player: Both
                    In a MLO: Yes

                    Comment

                    • rhein77
                      Pro
                      • Aug 2010
                      • 520

                      #11
                      Re: Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

                      Post of the year! Excellent post. Playing hall of fame is very inconsistent with top tier shooters. Playing with Steph Curry, Kyle Korver can be extremely frustrating because of their shot release timing. These are marksman and should be able to consistently make wide open shots. It takes away from the strategy when playing head to head. My opponents simply don't mind me shooting with them on hall of fame.

                      Some players shot releases on Hall of Fame are more dependable because of shot releases. Players like dragic, Jason Terry, Doug McDerrmott, and Derick Rose, and Isaiah Thomas are the real marksman because of their shot release.

                      They did something to Klay Thomas shot release because it is much easier on Hall of Fame. I also notice that the shot releases have been sped up. I played over last weekend and noticed it.


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                      Comment

                      • thedream2k13
                        MVP
                        • Jan 2013
                        • 1507

                        #12
                        Re: Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

                        Originally posted by rhein77
                        Post of the year! Excellent post. Playing hall of fame is very inconsistent with top tier shooters. Playing with Steph Curry, Kyle Korver can be extremely frustrating because of their shot release timing. These are marksman and should be able to consistently make wide open shots. It takes away from the strategy when playing head to head. My opponents simply don't mind me shooting with them on hall of fame.

                        Some players shot releases on Hall of Fame are more dependable because of shot releases. Players like dragic, Jason Terry, Doug McDerrmott, and Derick Rose, and Isaiah Thomas are the real marksman because of their shot release.

                        They did something to Klay Thomas shot release because it is much easier on Hall of Fame. I also notice that the shot releases have been sped up. I played over last weekend and noticed it.


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        As I said in one of my earlier threads , stop playing on hof .

                        To the OP , In 2k15 "catch and shoot"= shot off dribble . I play in a hof Sim league and its evident that the shot % all take a hit if you shoot within one second of catching the ball.

                        My advice play a lower level. I don't want the highest difficulty made easier for the prideful minority
                        #SIMNATION

                        fighting for truth, justice and SIMULATION gameplay

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                        • Rockie_Fresh88
                          Lockdown Defender
                          • Oct 2011
                          • 9621

                          #13
                          Re: Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

                          Originally posted by thedream2k13
                          As I said in one of my earlier threads , stop playing on hof .

                          To the OP , In 2k15 "catch and shoot"= shot off dribble . I play in a hof Sim league and its evident that the shot % all take a hit if you shoot within one second of catching the ball.

                          My advice play a lower level. I don't want the highest difficulty made easier for the prideful minority
                          I noticed that too that some shot % take a hit if you shoot to quick . But even on superstar sim some shots are too difficult I'm guessing .
                          #1 Laker fan
                          First Team Defense !!!

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                          • rhein77
                            Pro
                            • Aug 2010
                            • 520

                            #14
                            Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

                            Originally posted by thedream2k13
                            As I said in one of my earlier threads , stop playing on hof .



                            To the OP , In 2k15 "catch and shoot"= shot off dribble . I play in a hof Sim league and its evident that the shot % all take a hit if you shoot within one second of catching the ball.



                            My advice play a lower level. I don't want the highest difficulty made easier for the prideful minority

                            Prideful minority? I just want a realistic playing game on the highest level. That's hall of fame. All we play is Hall of Fame and it's been that way since 2k9. We also play shot timing and not real field percentage.

                            It's not the "prideful minority" when there are continuous threads about shooting on Hall of Fame. This thread was started with evidence and not some concocted story. Shooting can definitely be tweaked on hall of fame.



                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                            • luda06
                              Pro
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 572

                              #15
                              Re: Why Shot Timings Need Revision on SS &amp; HoF

                              Originally posted by thedream2k13
                              As I said in one of my earlier threads , stop playing on hof .

                              To the OP , In 2k15 "catch and shoot"= shot off dribble . I play in a hof Sim league and its evident that the shot % all take a hit if you shoot within one second of catching the ball.

                              My advice play a lower level. I don't want the highest difficulty made easier for the prideful minority
                              One, I'm still playing the game, still enjoying my time with the game at that. That's not what the OP is about.

                              Two, your advice is sound for friends interested in playing head-to-head. However, H2H quick matches are pre-set to Superstar, which is something users can't do much about, outside of not playing that mode altogether.

                              Finally, I'd like for you to test your claim in the same manner and we can compare results. I just think we need some concrete evidence to counter the OP.

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