Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

[StefJoeHalt]

Here is my concern, first off one of the most knowledgeable members here on defensive fronts assignments on OS is LBz..now based on my reading of his past post he is frustrated that Madden has not advanced (again my opinion) which is a sad cause he has/can explained things ten times better then me or anyone else..two, the new in vogue thing over the past couple of years due to Seattle's advance to the top, is 4-3 under....now we could spend hours (which I would love) having a discussion on this defensive front.:.but what I wonder is will madden update defensive fronts/personnel..example..46/34 Bear..current implementation of this front swaps SS and Will-backer..this allows better coverage on pass downs..I have read several times from posters here on OS that the 46 is obsolete in current football, when this isn't the case..what current coaches have done is what always happens they adapt..which Rex Ryan and every Seattle coach/current or former has done, they flop the SS and WLB..now to get back to the 4-3 under..madden 15 has SS and FS flopped when the SS should be in the box but in Madden they have the FS in the box..this is 2000 Pete Carroll at USC (when he has Taylor Mays at FS) not current..also current Madden "stack" is the over formation...to get back to 4-3 under..we most, need, have to have, weak side and strong side in the game..also we need under DT or 3 techs, and nose guards or 1 techs..we need someone who has knowledge of all defensive fronts currently being used to be involved in Madden..am i alone in this?? Madden needs to overhaul all defensive playbooks and fronts..


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[Hooe]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

I think a lot of the more knowledgable football people will tell you that the complete lack of true gap play and specific roles along the defensive front is one of the biggest weaknesses in the authenticity of the gameplay of Madden NFL right now.

I don't know when or how this gets into Madden because it's going to be a complicated thing to teach to people who don't honestly know football, which is a large chunk of Madden's audience. Right now, "three-technique" and "nose tackle" are the only gap-related terms that any casual fan might know or hear on ESPN, and even then said casual fan would only know it as much as "three-tech == pass rusher like Suh" or "nose tackle == run stuffer like Wilfork", not in terms of any down-to-down responsibilities.

If the game designers can't figure out a way teach gap assignments and position-specific to their audience and therefore allow users to run said gap assignments effectively, the unfortunately I don't think they will really give much attention to it anytime soon.

[StefJoeHalt]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

CM I don't disagree with u..but let me say this..most fans know the basic passing routes no? The reason I say this is..when I began to play football..I moved to the defensive side of the ball..here is why..one I didn't have the hands..two the defensive side of the ball was much easier to learn then the offensive side!! Now I'm not smart by any means..but:.i would venture to guess more "casual" fans know more offense then defense..offensive passing concepts they (Madden) explained in 15 is more complex then one and two gapping..don't u think?


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[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

I think a lot of the more knowledgable football people will tell you that the complete lack of true gap play and specific roles along the defensive front is one of the biggest weaknesses in the authenticity of the gameplay of Madden NFL right now.

I don't know when or how this gets into Madden because it's going to be a complicated thing to teach to people who don't honestly know football, which is a large chunk of Madden's audience. Right now, "three-technique" and "nose tackle" are the only gap-related terms that any casual fan might know or hear on ESPN, and even then said casual fan would only know it as much as "three-tech == pass rusher like Suh" or "nose tackle == run stuffer like Wilfork", not in terms of any down-to-down responsibilities.

If the game designers can't figure out a way teach gap assignments and position-specific to their audience and therefore allow users to run said gap assignments effectively, the unfortunately I don't think they will really give much attention to it anytime soon.

I think the designers could very easily add in a segment in the skills trainer, for gap responsibility education, yes?

As for positions of FS and SS, am I wrong in the belief that most teams do not designate either position, and have essentially made a safety a safety, in general, and using both positions as a "jack of all trades"?

[Hooe]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

I think the designers could very easily add in a segment in the skills trainer, for gap responsibility education, yes?

They could and I imagine they would. I doubt that would be anywhere near sufficient for a pick-up-and-play player. I could be proven wrong, however (and would welcome being wrong in this case, actually).

As for positions of FS and SS, am I wrong in the belief that most teams do not designate either position, and have essentially made a safety a safety, in general, and using both positions as a "jack of all trades"?

I think this depends on the defense a given team is running. Kam Chancellor is still very much a strong safety in Seattle, and he can do things Earl Thomas can't do. Likewise, Earl Thomas is the roving free safety, he can do things that Chancellor can't. In contrast, I'm not under the impression that there's a whole lot of difference in positional responsibility overall between Barry Church and J.J. Wilcox, the two starting safeties in Dallas.

[Hooe]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

CM I don't disagree with u..but let me say this..most fans know the basic passing routes no? The reason I say this is..when I began to play football..I moved to the defensive side of the ball..here is why..one I didn't have the hands..two the defensive side of the ball was much easier to learn then the offensive side!! Now I'm not smart by any means..but:.i would venture to guess more "casual" fans know more offense then defense..offensive passing concepts they (Madden) explained in 15 is more complex then one and two gapping..don't u think?

You have more institutional knowledge than the average casual fan by virtue of having played organized football (please take that as a compliment).

When I say "casual" fan, I'm talking like commentor-on-ProFootballTalk level of discourse on the subject. Defense in football to people speaking at this level is "sack quarterback, tackle running back, yellow zones are better than purple zones because reasons".

Perhaps I'm not giving the average viewer of football enough credit, but a trip to a random dive bar in America to watch a game on a Sunday would probably prove otherwise, I'd imagine. This is the audience Madden must be accessible to, while at the same time providing the strategic depth to please this audience at OS.

[StefJoeHalt]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

You have more institutional knowledge than the average casual fan by virtue of having played organized football (please take that as a compliment).



When I say "casual" fan, I'm talking like commentor-on-ProFootballTalk level of discourse on the subject. Defense in football to people speaking at this level is "sack quarterback, tackle running back, yellow zones are better than purple zones because reasons".



Perhaps I'm not giving the average viewer of football enough credit, but a trip to a random dive bar in America to watch a game on a Sunday would probably prove otherwise, I'd imagine.

I think maybe we can come to agreement between the two..to be honest in a basic sense Madden concepts of routes aren't "bad"..on a simple to even moderate level in my opinion...in Madden there is progressions built in..are they followed by the player..not sure..can't say unless I'm sitting next to them..but..again defense at least how I was taught all the way to college is simple..again, why I played on that side of the ball..there is a reason most "smart" football players are either QB's or OLinemen..


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[Potatoes002]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

I think a lot of the more knowledgable football people will tell you that the complete lack of true gap play and specific roles along the defensive front is one of the biggest weaknesses in the authenticity of the gameplay of Madden NFL right now.

I don't know when or how this gets into Madden because it's going to be a complicated thing to teach to people who don't honestly know football, which is a large chunk of Madden's audience. Right now, "three-technique" and "nose tackle" are the only gap-related terms that any casual fan might know or hear on ESPN, and even then said casual fan would only know it as much as "three-tech == pass rusher like Suh" or "nose tackle == run stuffer like Wilfork", not in terms of any down-to-down responsibilities.

If the game designers can't figure out a way teach gap assignments and position-specific to their audience and therefore allow users to run said gap assignments effectively, the unfortunately I don't think they will really give much attention to it anytime soon.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said in this thread. If EA really viewed this as a priority, they could absolutely incorporate it into their awesome Skills Trainer.

Though, I am not sure how soon we could see something like true gap play and a revamped defensive front. Although in recent years we have seen overhauls to the passing, running, OL/DL interactions and now finally this year with WR/CB interactions. Maybe now since every position group has had some sort of their AI overhauled, the future Madden's can focus on and hammer down more of the little things tied to them.

[PSUEagle]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

I've known lbzrule and come across him on various Madden forums for over five years: we've been saying forever that the single biggest limiting factor in the game right now is the way defense is set up.

Madden is basically a giant house that's been built on a terrible foundation, and so because of that you always without fail see some exploit year to year.

In fact, in NCAA/Madden I can almost always predict what is going to be overpowered vs underpowered based on the year before. Wheel routes were too good (Madden 13)? They'll be useless the next year. Route mirroring was obnoxious on in breaking routes (Madden 11)? They'll be great the next year. Shotgun runs were severely under powered? Suction blocking the next year. And so on.

I was kind of hopeful (maybe 20% chance) that EA would rebuild the gameplay engine from the ground up once they transitioned to next gen. Judging from conversations I've had with people I trust along with watching games on youtube, that definitely hasn't occurred.

Bottom line is it's never changing until there's a a money driven reason (competition) for it to.

[DCEBB2001]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

One thing I am still waiting for in conjunction with the fronts is the technique description and potential when scouting a player. For instance, a 3-4 DE is usually a 4-3 DT in college with enough strength to hold the point of attack as a two-gapper in the 3-4. Not every 4-3 DT has that ability, however, because they don't possess the strength to two-gap and eat up blocks. If you run a 3-4 in the game, you should be able to scout players based on your scheme. For instance, if you scout a DT there should be an unlockable scouting trait that determines if he is strong enough to hold the point of attack. Then, you know if he will fit your scheme as a 3-4 DE. Then, if the guy you draft is a quicker, lighter, less-strong DT, you know that he would be ideal for the 4-3 where you are assigned a single gap and you stuff the run as you rush the passer. Stuff like that would be great!

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

I think a lot of the more knowledgable football people will tell you that the complete lack of true gap play and specific roles along the defensive front is one of the biggest weaknesses in the authenticity of the gameplay of Madden NFL right now.

I don't know when or how this gets into Madden because it's going to be a complicated thing to teach to people who don't honestly know football, which is a large chunk of Madden's audience. Right now, "three-technique" and "nose tackle" are the only gap-related terms that any casual fan might know or hear on ESPN, and even then said casual fan would only know it as much as "three-tech == pass rusher like Suh" or "nose tackle == run stuffer like Wilfork", not in terms of any down-to-down responsibilities.

If the game designers can't figure out a way teach gap assignments and position-specific to their audience and therefore allow users to run said gap assignments effectively, the unfortunately I don't think they will really give much attention to it anytime soon.

I don't think this is something they need to teach, at least not to the level some expect. All Pro Football 2k8 has it, and there really is no tutorial. As a casual, I simply experimented with using different fronts with various blitzes or secondary calls. I honestly couldn't tell you if my calls were the strategically right calls in certain situations, but it looks more like the sport when players are attacking gaps instead of attacking lineman and casuals can tell when something looks the part and this would help Madden in that regard.

[Skyboxer]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

I think a lot of the more knowledgable football people will tell you that the complete lack of true gap play and specific roles along the defensive front is one of the biggest weaknesses in the authenticity of the gameplay of Madden NFL right now.

I don't know when or how this gets into Madden because it's going to be a complicated thing to teach to people who don't honestly know football, which is a large chunk of Madden's audience. Right now, "three-technique" and "nose tackle" are the only gap-related terms that any casual fan might know or hear on ESPN, and even then said casual fan would only know it as much as "three-tech == pass rusher like Suh" or "nose tackle == run stuffer like Wilfork", not in terms of any down-to-down responsibilities.

If the game designers can't figure out a way teach gap assignments and position-specific to their audience and therefore allow users to run said gap assignments effectively, the unfortunately I don't think they will really give much attention to it anytime soon.

Not only have gap assignments but get to a tiered play calling system.

[SolidSquid]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

Not only have gap assignments but get to a tiered play calling system.

This combined with true head tracking and reaction to passes would make defense feel very organic.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

I guess I'll never understand why people think certain football fundamentals are "too complicated" to be in the game. If you are a casual fan who chooses to ignore any football fundamentals, you can still enjoy the game just the same. You won't know the difference anyway. Many people would actually not mind LEARNING something. The average football fan has evolved with the increase in social media, popularity of the NFL, etc. etc. There are TONS of resources out there now for anyone to study up and learn about all different kinds of concepts. You can simply do a google search now and find anything you want to know about defensive fronts, packages, formations, etc.

Having these in a football game should be mandatory at this point in time. Having this stuff in the game is not going to deter someone who chooses not to understand it from playing the game. However, NOT having any of this DOES deter those who desire it from wanting to play the game. Sports games are growing up and evolving. All of the other major sports games are doing it except for Madden, which is about 8 years behind the other games. I think it would not only be beneficial from a quality and enjoyment perspective for Madden, but it would also be great to help teach people the fundamentals of the game of football itself and make them a more knowledgeable fan. After enough time passes and you don't advance with the demands and expectations many users (even younger ones) now expect in video games from a realism standpoint, you start to become an afterthought. It would be a great disservice to football gaming to abstain from including the elements of football that make it FOOTBALL in the only NFL video game.

[StefJoeHalt]

Re: Will Madden 16 improve defensive fronts or continue down 90's path

Just to add..I know nothing about programming and my knowledge of video games is solely playing..but if the game was programmed to gap assignments casual games would not have to worry as it is set...as of right now the game appears to just heads up assignments..I read a post here were someone said the d-line is tied to the o-line..is this true?


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