What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

[LorenzoDC]

I read this post in the cheese thread and it made me think about how many people here could make positive suggestions about improving defense. Please go take a look at that before commenting in this thread.

I know people leave these kinds of comments all over but I don't recall seeing a thread just focused on defense, as opposed to a particular mode based wish list or something.

I don't know if people will be interested in offering ideas and brain storming but I thought I'd give it a try. Just be constructive, not whiney. Offer observations of what happens now and identify possible ways to make defense better.

The game seems to use defensive assist as a way to cover over a lot of the limitations in playing defense. The problem with the slider at default though is you sacrifice a lot of control and get all that suction morphing.

I think defense needs a much better animation library, and probably more controls and settings in the defensive settings menu to help sim players control what happens on the court. Defense is as much part of basketball as offense, but the offensive player control is miles ahead of what anyone can do on defense, even if there is enough in the game to help you play good defense if you know how. Please check out that link too before commenting.

[JohnnyCash2015]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

Make centers like Jordan actually good rim protectors by allowing them to alter shots, not just block


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jk31]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

The game seems to use defensive assist as a way to cover over a lot of the limitations in playing defense. The problem with the slider at default though is you sacrifice a lot of control and get all that suction morphing.

First step: Get rid of this AI help thing. No automatic shot contest, no ai moving the player you control. So players lean to play defense for themselves which makes defense a lot more efficient in my opinion.

In my opinion, you as a defender, get forced into many unwanted animations very often. What I see sometimes: I make a closeout and want to put my arm up to contest a possible shot. This sometimes triggers a kind of closeout animation (which I don't want.... let ME close out by using the left stick and let ME put the arm up with the right stick - too much extra movement by using the right stick) which makes me run past the player with the ball though I just wanted to put the arm up. That's just an example of many unwanted animations which make defense kinda hard.

I have to say, defense in NBA 2k15 can be done pretty good in comparison to older editions of NBA 2k.

Another thing which bothers me is the help defense. Nearly every year they tell us help defense is improved. I don't see anything of this. Really. Opponent blows by his on-ball defender and nothing happens, he has a free lane to the hoop if I don't switch early enough to control the help-side. Without my help, the AI doesn't even think of helping out. They don't make any step into the direction of the ball, sometimes even stepping back from it to create even more space. On the other hand, people which are NOT supposed to help out do it too much. A ballside defender NEVER EVER EVER should help out on the ball, except when I set the defensive settings for this guy to sag-off from his man (e.g. he's guarding someone like Tony Allen). They help out way to often though they shouldn't do.

[jfsolo]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

That post and your post are completely on point. Offensive and defensive control need to be the same, when it comes to foot-planting, animation coverage, momentum, etc,. One shouldn't have to feather the stick like a surgeon with a scalpel to have reasonable control over your guy.

Also a reduction in offensive effectiveness of many players in the game is need too. A lot of players in the league don't have the ball handling skills to execute the moves that they can in this game. Especially in the half court, in traffic, while facing pressure and physicality. No User should be able to take a Wesley Johnson and abuse another User who is guarding him with Iguodala because of the offensive/defensive control discrepancy.

[jayman504]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

First off THANK you for starting this discussion! I totally agree that defence in future 2k's need improving. IMO there is to much sliding and improper movement on defence. It feels like your player is on a "grid" and can only move in certain directions at times, add in specific animations like the "stutter" step and walk makes for very frustrating times. Personally I believe fatigue should play a MAJOR factor when playing defence. When a player subs in he will be all over the court playing aggressive D etc. After awhile that player SHOULD become sluggish with his movement and need substituting, but as it is now all players feel sluggish with no burst of movement.

[stillfeelme]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

Strategic wise:


1. Pick and roll settings and defensive matchup setting need to be rewritten. They need team logic defending one person. The setting are designed to how does ANY person on the team defend the pick and roll ball handler. When in reality teams may switch up defense based off who is the setting the pick and what you want to give up on the play.


Example: You wouldn't have your non-agile big defend a pick and roll the same way your athletic big would.


They need "Show" settings for pick and roll as well as "zone up" pick and roll and play well under the pick and roll for the big.


Your defensive on ball/off ball defense should be broken down to how you defend on the perimeter vs. in the paint for both on ball and off ball.


2. Plenty of the problems created on defense is because the offense is given certain animations which can't be defended properly. They need to tie some logic into which animations are triggered in the paint.


3. Contact animations and the ability to trigger certain shooting animations are not connected to contact and momentum, physics. You can be playing some good defense with contact then a split second later an animation is triggered to shoot a layup or slip the defense as if you were not there. I am not saying they definitely need full physics but they need more realistic physics animations about contact especially in the paint.


Example:


Kyrie, Steph, Rondo and a few others need their own layup package that include layups that go high off the glass. They are not always floaters or tear drops but they shoot layups high off the glass so they don't get blocked. If there is confusion put the high layups that Steph, Kyrie and other guards use in the floater package. Nothing is worse than have Steph perform a "layup" line layup and have my big not be able to jump because he has "won" the animation.


4. Layup rating should reflect some sort of contested success vs. open success. Say contested at the rim vs. open at the rim.


5. Defensive bigs don't properly or realistically rotate to defend the paint. You will catch shot blockers not rotating on drives when not in foul trouble. The reason why seems to be either difficulty or bad logic.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

Strategic wise:


1. Pick and roll settings and defensive matchup setting need to be rewritten. They need team logic defending one person. The setting are designed to how does ANY person on the team defend the pick and roll ball handler. When in reality teams may switch up defense based off who is the setting the pick and what you want to give up on the play.


Example: You wouldn't have your non-agile big defend a pick and roll the same way your athletic big would.


They need "Show" settings for pick and roll as well as "zone up" pick and roll and play well under the pick and roll for the big.


Your defensive on ball/off ball defense should be broken down to how you defend on the perimeter vs. in the paint for both on ball and off ball.

I'm really interested in these and other ideas about how to improve defensive settings. I know I've seen some good ones before around here.

2. Plenty of the problems created on defense is because the offense is given certain animations which can't be defended properly. They need to tie some logic into which animations are triggered in the paint.

Very much this.

3. Contact animations and the ability to trigger certain shooting animations are not connected to contact and momentum, physics. You can be playing some good defense with contact then a split second later an animation is triggered to shoot a layup or slip the defense as if you were not there. I am not saying they definitely need full physics but they need more realistic physics animations about contact especially in the paint.


Example:


Kyrie, Steph, Rondo and a few others need their own layup package that include layups that go high off the glass. They are not always floaters or tear drops but they shoot layups high off the glass so they don't get blocked. If there is confusion put the high layups that Steph, Kyrie and other guards use in the floater package. Nothing is worse than have Steph perform a "layup" line layup and have my big not be able to jump because he has "won" the animation.

Yup. I really agree that the offensive animations don't vary enough based on how well defense is played when there is contest or defensive contact. Those offensive "win" animations make it seem at times like playing good defense is futile. Of course sliders matter on this but let's leave that aside. If an elite interior defender is playing great body up defense with a hand in place to disrupt a shot, even if a great player makes that shot successful, it should not look as if the shot goes off as if no defense in happening, or worse, the defensive player falls down or just moves aside to allow an open lane for the predetermined animation.

4. Layup rating should reflect some sort of contested success vs. open success. Say contested at the rim vs. open at the rim.


5. Defensive bigs don't properly or realistically rotate to defend the paint. You will catch shot blockers not rotating on drives when not in foul trouble. The reason why seems to be either difficulty or bad logic.

It's sometimes tied to player defensive help intelligence, post defense IQ, or other player intelligence ratings. Players with lower intelligence on some of those rating are more likely to just "space out" and ignore the driving player right in front of them, or even worse, actively get out of the way. It happens all the time in the game and it's pretty maddening.

Even when you have control of a defender and are playing good defense, the game may force an animation where your body up defender is sliding backward like a gate to make room for the offense to gain open access to the hoop for a successful shot. This happens especially when the offense has momentum building.

Momentum is a whole other conversation, but in 2k, it seems like the best way to get momentum is with your offensive execution, and only secondarily with defense. And yet in the real game some teams can just take over a game with defense and turn it around. In 2k, if momentum slips away, playing great defense can slow it down or dim it, but can't really turn it around, not without a time out.

I think time outs are a little overpowered as momentum "power ups" and playing great defense is underpowered. Now maybe all of that is because defensive play is just not deep enough to make much of a difference, but then, that's also what this conversation is about - making defense and player execution of defense a bigger part of the game.

[TaylorBoi]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

First step: Get rid of this AI help thing. No automatic shot contest, no ai moving the player you control. So players lean to play defense for themselves which makes defense a lot more efficient in my opinion.

I'm all for this but 2K really has to fix the delay online for this to be successful. Currently you have to press y or triangle well before your opponent even puts up the shot to contest it. The delay is awful in 2k15.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

I want to say something about POE's here, too.

So, to play sim style, itchyroll_51 has the best general system. Play most or all of your game with neutral defensive aggression and protect the paint while using and adjusting defensive settings to personnel and to the dynamics of the game as it progresses.

What that effectively means is that, for higher level sim style play, setting POE to either defend the perimeter or to neutral is mostly useless. Conservative defense is rarely useful except late with a lead, and play physical is occasionally useful but leads to too many risks of aggression that open up paths to the paint, unless you just don't use defensive settings at all. These paths to the paint in part open up because user defense is not well enough developed to make user defensive skill enough of a factor in the game, relative to the offense.

For advanced players, the problem is the POE system for defense becomes less a tool to really use than it is a base context to work around and fine tune with defensive settings. POE's are supposed to bring strategy, and on defense they do that for less hard core players or #simnation guys. They do it better on offense and less hard core players who don't use defensive settings and game plans.

Ideally, assuming the POE system remains in place, I'd like to see a perimeter defensive setting that doesn't lead to bad rotations, guys left open who should be guarded on the perimeter, or just generally too much abandonment of any rim protection or help whatsoever down low. That goes for the other less useful defensive POE settings as well.

Of course, I'd like to see more options and control under defensive settings, but that doesn't mean that POE's can't have some use to the sim player, if done right. Right now, they've been developed with more the casual non sim player in mind and the defensive settings are kind of an upscale option for other players, but the two systems are not really designed and implemented well to work in tandem or coordinate with each other. They're almost side by side, rather than complementary or additive.

[stillfeelme]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

The NBA is largely a pick and roll league. The defense being played to defend the pick and roll is way behind and not versatile enough to defend all the PnR scenarios


I feel like the teams should have a default pick and roll scheme which some teams primarily like to run.


Some are going to Ice, switch everything no matter what( Cav's), show on certain occasions zone up or play way under the pick or double the ball handler. Each team should have a default "scheme" they run. That way the defense is very unique tied to coaching.


They need to really put some logic and breakable animations for layups. How many contact animations for layups exist? How many bad layup attempts exist?


Some of the defense rotations even for some shot blocking bigs is just not there. It probably is related to awareness but some guys are more likely to over help and do too much contesting shots which could lead to another pass which should be an option in the game. Some guys are good at double jumps


Forgot about this but I would love to see the guys who use verticality have that as an animation. Mosgov's, Hibbert. The real good guys that are good at protecting the rim don't have to block your shot to make you miss. Their presence causes you to change your shot. To a point you don't challenge them often.


Howard, Jordan, Serge, Noel and few others are high vertical jumpers. They can bait you into shooting a layup and jump late and catch the ball near apex 11plus feet. What I am saying is vertical should play a key role in actual animations and paint defense. They can block like a volleyball player with a late jump


Hibbert is very tall long low vertical. He is long enough where he doesn't really get those top of the apex blocks 11 feet up but he can still change shots.


Bogut, Duncan are really good at blocking on the way up with good hand eye coordination.

[jk31]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

I'm all for this but 2K really has to fix the delay online for this to be successful. Currently you have to press y or triangle well before your opponent even puts up the shot to contest it. The delay is awful in 2k15.

Uhm, no? I dunno, but for me on PC it isn't that way. I mostly play online, and I find defense is possible quite good.

[thedream2k16]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

When opponent tries a post fade jumper it feels like they are surrounded by a force field which keeps from getting close enough to manually contest the shot

[Chemthethriller]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

First to improve defense I think we need to... tone down offense.

1. Dribble stamina: I player preforming multiple dribble moves in a row will gain almost like a debuff or a reduction in stamina. I got it players like AI, Irving, Curry, etc can do multiple dribble moves and get away with it... Honestly though if you watch a game, it's not like every single time down court they break their defender down and slash to the hoop or drop a 3. These guys also did pass the ball and take on the court "rests" where maybe the play was fed to a big man, or the player wasn't the focal point of the offense. Right now, as you all know, we can have a PG dribble move down the court, then do another 18 seconds of non stop dribble moves with really no repercussions.

With a dribble stamina meter of some kind, the more dribble moves you do consecutively the higher chance of a loose ball, or letting someone get a steal on you.

2. Contested shots need to be more difficult to make: Only do some of the best players ever really get unfazed by a man in their face for 3... it's rarely in a row also... At the current state of the game we have people shooting non stop with hands in their faces, only to drop 40 points a game. It's insane that 2k is letting them get away with this garbage.

3. Make right stick defense better: too an extent we should be able to counter an offensive player's moves with the correct right stick more, allowing a free style type of defense that doesn't rely on mashing square or triangle.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

5. Defensive bigs don't properly or realistically rotate to defend the paint. You will catch shot blockers not rotating on drives when not in foul trouble. The reason why seems to be either difficulty or bad logic.

One thing I have noticed along these lines is that i often see cpu players best positioned to be the help defender in the paint attempting to take charges while well within the restricted zone, this usually leads to either easy looks, or the guy getting postered for the and 1.

I want to say something about POE's here, too.

So, to play sim style, itchyroll_51 has the best general system. Play most or all of your game with neutral defensive aggression and protect the paint while using and adjusting defensive settings to personnel and to the dynamics of the game as it progresses.

What that effectively means is that, for higher level sim style play, setting POE to either defend the perimeter or to neutral is mostly useless. Conservative defense is rarely useful except late with a lead, and play physical is occasionally useful but leads to too many risks of aggression that open up paths to the paint, unless you just don't use defensive settings at all. These paths to the paint in part open up because user defense is not well enough developed to make user defensive skill enough of a factor in the game, relative to the offense.

For advanced players, the problem is the POE system for defense becomes less a tool to really use than it is a base context to work around and fine tune with defensive settings. POE's are supposed to bring strategy, and on defense they do that for less hard core players or #simnation guys. They do it better on offense and less hard core players who don't use defensive settings and game plans.

Ideally, assuming the POE system remains in place, I'd like to see a perimeter defensive setting that doesn't lead to bad rotations, guys left open who should be guarded on the perimeter, or just generally too much abandonment of any rim protection or help whatsoever down low. That goes for the other less useful defensive POE settings as well.

Of course, I'd like to see more options and control under defensive settings, but that doesn't mean that POE's can't have some use to the sim player, if done right. Right now, they've been developed with more the casual non sim player in mind and the defensive settings are kind of an upscale option for other players, but the two systems are not really designed and implemented well to work in tandem or coordinate with each other. They're almost side by side, rather than complementary or additive.

Something else I noticed as it relates to My Career: The CPU coaching will often leave your defensive POE's set to "Play Physical Defense" and "Run In Transition" for long periods of times; i believe this is part of the issues people have with "horrible team defense" in that mode as it leads to your people chancing it too much and failing to box out, resulting in way too many easy shots and offensive boards for the other team.

This is made even worse by extremely poor timeout management by the CPU coach,making it difficult as a player to right the ship when things get out of hand (i.e. the infamous "3rd/4th Quarter CPU Comeback Cheese")

[LorenzoDC]

Re: What Are Your Constructive Ideas for Improving Defense?

3. Make right stick defense better: too an extent we should be able to counter an offensive player's moves with the correct right stick more, allowing a free style type of defense that doesn't rely on mashing square or triangle.

And now you hit my pet peeve about right stick defense: using it down low and the opponent gets a shot up and your player rebounds or gets a loose ball so fast that your last right stick defense input is interpreted by the game as a full court heave shot.

So you play all that hard defense, contest or even block the shot, and your reward is a full court chuck due to rapid input switch before you can react.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

I really wish they would disable that full court chuck heave shot altogether, except for the last 4 seconds of any quarter. Something like that.