Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

[ChiliPalmer]

It could have been the best 2k gameplay wise this year but the undeniable scripted momentum/comeback logic makes RTTP unplayable for me.

Bad players who cant do nothing but turbo drive through 3 defenders and dunk get rewarded. Almost every game is a close game, no matter how good you are and how bad your opponent is. There is heavy scripted comeback cheese and an obvious equalizer, so theres no point of having the best cards on the game too.

I like the defense this year where you actually get rewarded for playing on ball. But these scripted mechanics are the worst. One quarter nothing goes in, the next quarter the weirdest stuff does. And i beat RTTP in November, so im not salty or anything. RTTP is just not fun with this scripted BS. I also play PNO and its a whole different experience. I really hope this will not be part of the game next year 2k.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

this is one of the biggest problems with this mode. its gonna happen against the cpu but the cpu at least uses some IQ so when they get momentum its expected. RTTP never ceases to amaze when you have on-ball clamps on someone and they are falling out of bounds w/ hand in face...then you say, "here we go with this b.s." next thing you know, your guy with 99 ball control just starts losing the ball for no reason, rebounds jump out of your hand into the next guy's, green releases jump out the hoop. this is another reason why I wont be buying this game on release next year. this happens every year and I want to hear all of this stuff is gone before I make the monetary and time investment.

[Danbuc09]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

It does that to force you to take timeouts. I usually call timeout after a dunk or an open three. This scripting is nothing like FIFA though...if you ever played that you would be ok with 2k lol

[ChiliPalmer]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

It does that to force you to take timeouts. I usually call timeout after a dunk or an open three. This scripting is nothing like FIFA though...if you ever played that you would be ok with 2k lol

I saw this coming up. But im talking about scripted games, where you can call timouts forever and it still wont change the scripted cheese. Its built in to keep games close but its the worst idea ever.

[Cowboyfan_19]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

It's been in 2k for a few years now. IDK i guess you just have to get used to it, because they're not gonna change it for the sake of a small % of sim players being happy(me being one of them). If lower skilled players are constantly being blown out, what reason is there for them to buy the game or to continue to buy VC?

If you've played 2k long enough, you already know when your or the cpu will make or miss a wide open shot just based on the score. If you're down 10, you'll make a wide open 3pter 70% of the time. If you're up 10, you'll miss it 85% of the time.

[Craxior]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

If you notice that you missed a couple open shots in a row I suggest to stop shooting all together and milk the clock to last second and try to draw fouls etc.
If you continue shooting it's rebounds and bs fastbreaks for the other guy. Timeouts do nothing but waste time, gives you a break basically, that's all, it helps me to calm the f down lol

But yeah random momentum swings are real and they are random, makes no sense.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

it doesnt encourage players to get better though. this game has a lot of modes. if you arent good enough for RTTP then stick to offline play or something else. if the 76ers play the Warriors 10x this year the outcome is going to be the same and the course and flow will be the same in nearly all of them. in 10 games the 76ers arent going to make a ridiculous run to bring the game close every game. that's not realistic. this happens in Gauntlet too and sometimes you will lose because one side's difficulty has been lowered while the other's has been raised. its frustrating in any mode when you know you are playing lockdown D and players get desperate and start rage-chucking. most of the time my opponent quits if I get up good on them, but if they stick around they usually can make a go of it.

[QNo]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

I agree that momentum is over the top, especially in MyTeam. But I don't think that there's such a thing as scripted outcomes etc. I believe that the reason this is more extrem in MyTeam than in regular gameplay is that everybody has so many players with great (personality) badges that will stack and create this over the top momentum. You can combat it, you need to call timeouts, change your lineup/POEs/offensive strategy. When jumpshots aren't falling you need to go in the post or try to get a layup. A certain player is killing you on offense? Put a different defender on them, even if you're already guarding them with a good defender.

I wrote a longer post on this in the main forum a while ago, quoting it since it's relevant:

I feel like a lot of posters in this thread focus on only one or two of the variables that have an influence on runs. This leads to everybody thinking that they're clearly right, when they're only taking part in a subsection of the debate. The following are some of the variables that can influence runs. The first 4 are obviously part of the game, while the last 2 are debatable. Let me know if you can think of any others, as it helps focus our discussion.


1) User Performance: The user may play worse when his opponent is on a run. They may also become lazy when they're up a lot, thus giving their opponents an advantage. This is clearly part of the game and indisputably something that can have an effect on runs.

2) Random distribution of shots: One may play the same when on a bad run, but might get bad luck of the draw for a period of time. Bracketing other variables, if a corner 3 with a corner specialist has a 50% chance of going in, 25% of the time you will miss to consecutive ones. Half the time you'll either make 2 in a row or miss 2 in a row, with 6 points in 2 possessions obviously being a huge swing. This is also obviously part of the game.

3) Players getting hot/cold: This is signified by red and blue rings around players. It's not obvious exactly how and when players go cold (except some instances, like getting your shot blocked), but it's obviously part of the game. It's also clear that this can have an effect on how runs play out.

4) Badges: Some personality badges, such as Heart and Soul, Closer, Alpha/Beta Dog, Mentor, Fierce Competitor seem like they might have direct effects on runs, too. When things get out of hand, Draymond Green rallies his team together. Beta Dogs step up when the Alpha Dog doesn't, Alpha Dogs step it up when the whole team is playing poorly. Microwave makes KD go hot quickly which can be a game-changer. A team that has a lot of guys with such badges is more likely to go on a run and come back. This is thus especially true for top teams and might be part of the long-held reason for why the community thinks that top-teams have a distinct advantage when down and are scripted to come back. Clearly, badges play a role in runs and comebacks.

5) 'Comeback Code': The idea is that 2k has scripted the game in such a way that they are determined to be close. Since devs have denied this multiple times we should probably assume that there is indeed no such code.

6) 'Momentum Code': However, there might still be 'momentum code'. Something like getting a steal leading to a dunk when your team is down a lot may give you a temporary boost. This is really hard to evaluate without a dev chiming in, since a lot of other variables (such as badges) are not well-explained at all. But it seems fair to assume that there is such code, since czar recently stated that there is code that makes it so that calling a timeout will help you stop a run. Though one can also argue that calling a timeout has an effect on some of the other variables mentioned, such as cooling players down (if they dont have the Unfazed badge, of course).



I think that focusing the debate on these individual variables will only help it. A lot of the current discussion is simply too murky and doesn't help to clarify the issues at stake. We should try to identify the importance of each of these variables. This is difficult to do since they may be different from user to user. If someone rages quickly, that might be more important than the game mechanics. For the Buddha that may not be a factor at all.

It is also important that we all acknowledge that there is more than one variable at play, e.g. it is not only the comeback code or the 2k rage that makes runs happen. Such comments are too narrowly focused to help sharpening our understanding of how comebacks work in 2k. It seems to me to very hard to deny that 1)-4) all play part in comebacks.


My personal intuition is that there are certain plays that cause momentum shifts and that this is often exacerbated when a team has lots of guys with good badges on them. This can lead to a chain reaction, causing one to make almost every shot and get defensive stops. I see weird runs more in MyTeam than in PlayNow, so it seems to me that badges are an important factor here. In PlayNow I often stop playing seriously early on, since I like to use tier 2/3 teams. If they quit before the 4th quarter I don't get my bonus wins so I'm happy to leave them in the game. I would never do this in MyTeam where it is much rarer for me to blow out my opponent.

(Yes, the average MyTeam starting 5 is much better and can thus score much more easily, but they also defend much better, so that in itself is not an obvious explanation.)

I really hope that there is no momentum code, let alone comeback code, since the number of variables that has an effect in comebacks is already very large. It seems to me that badges are too effective, thus making comebacks happen more often than not. User skill, randomness, players being hot/cold, and badges should be more than enough variables to emulate the kind of runs we see in the real NBA. Right now runs seem to be triggered too easily.

Testing: Another question that should be part of this debate: How can we test which of these variables are important? Since the devs seem unwilling to share how any of this works, apart from denying the existence of comeback code, testing is the only way for us to gain knowledge on which variables matter, and how much. I watched an excellent video on the importance of the shot meter earlier today. Testing comeback code mechanics won't be as easy, but some of the great minds around here might have some good ideas.

[ChiliPalmer]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

It's been in 2k for a few years now. IDK i guess you just have to get used to it, because they're not gonna change it for the sake of a small % of sim players being happy(me being one of them). If lower skilled players are constantly being blown out, what reason is there for them to buy the game or to continue to buy VC?

If you've played 2k long enough, you already know when your or the cpu will make or miss a wide open shot just based on the score. If you're down 10, you'll make a wide open 3pter 70% of the time. If you're up 10, you'll miss it 85% of the time.

I play 2k since Ben Wallace was on the cover and it never has been that bad. Last year i couldnt even notice it. Maybe it was there, maybe not. Had long discussions last year. But this year its on a whole new level. The games feels scripted as a whole. Like sometimes you cannot win no matter what.
Your oppenent will make every bad shot, triple comtested layup etc and you brick wide open shots with an A release. Its just dumb.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

I play 2k since Ben Wallace was on the cover and it never has been that bad. Last year i couldnt even notice it. Maybe it was there, maybe not. Had long discussions last year. But this year its on a whole new level. The games feels scripted as a whole. Like sometimes you cannot win no matter what.
Your oppenent will make every bad shot, triple comtested layup etc and you brick wide open shots with an A release. Its just dumb.

this happens in 1 silver seed, so the personality badges dont have much of an effect because most bronze have none.

also, good players buy VC too, its just that the ones that really suck think they can buy a winning team. its frustrating to no end knowing that you put the time in and focus hard on playing tough D and smart offense when someone is rewarded for playing desperation 3pt chuckfest mode. IRL that tactic could get you buried under a record-breaking pile of points.

[ChiliPalmer]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

this happens in 1 silver seed, so the personality badges dont have much of an effect because most bronze have none.

also, good players buy VC too, its just that the ones that really suck think they can buy a winning team. its frustrating to no end knowing that you put the time in and focus hard on playing tough D and smart offense when someone is rewarded for playing desperation 3pt chuckfest mode. IRL that tactic could get you buried under a record-breaking pile of points.

What you mean by 1 silver seed? It happens in every seed, but in the unrestricted seeds you can feel it the most. I can win with an all gold squad for 50k vs a good player with elite cards. I just need to drive with Wall or Westbrook through 3 defenders and get the foul or the bucket or both. Or pass the ball to Gasol in the post, pump fake and get the same result. Kids ger rewarded for doing the same moves over and over. And the scripted momentum decides who wins.

[synistr]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

What you mean by 1 silver seed? It happens in every seed, but in the unrestricted seeds you can feel it the most. I can win with an all gold squad for 50k vs a good player with elite cards. I just need to drive with Wall or Westbrook through 3 defenders and get the foul or the bucket or both. Or pass the ball to Gasol in the post, pump fake and get the same result. Kids ger rewarded for doing the same moves over and over. And the scripted momentum decides who wins.

right, I was saying it happens in every seed, but to counter the point that QNo made about badges, I used 1-silver seeds as example to say most players dont have personality badges in those seeds, some dont have any badges...so that cant be an excuse for scripted play. I feel I have great bronze cards and play great defense but if I dont make an opponent quit...they usually make a monumental run that is just unprecedented. I was beating someone by 22 at halftime and they wouldnt quit. then all types of f***ery ensued and they came back within 2, I couldnt do jack about it.... then I regained momentum and beat em by 15. This shouldnt happen though because they were throwing up nonsense. 2k can deny it all they want and I wouldnt expect them to admit none of this anyway.

[Danbuc09]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

I had someone make a comeback on me by making two threes in a row with Zebo.

[ChiliPalmer]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

right, I was saying it happens in every seed, but to counter the point that QNo made about badges, I used 1-silver seeds as example to say most players dont have personality badges in those seeds, some dont have any badges...so that cant be an excuse for scripted play. I feel I have great bronze cards and play great defense but if I dont make an opponent quit...they usually make a monumental run that is just unprecedented. I was beating someone by 22 at halftime and they wouldnt quit. then all types of f***ery ensued and they came back within 2, I couldnt do jack about it.... then I regained momentum and beat em by 15. This shouldnt happen though because they were throwing up nonsense. 2k can deny it all they want and I wouldnt expect them to admit none of this anyway.

Yup, gotcha, its exactly what happens. I dont even think they will deny it this year, as it is so obvious. Its built in to give new MT players a chance.
But it leads to stupid results like mentioned above. The thing is i see nobody really complaining bc its nothing that you can backup with hard facts.

Every game looks like you described it, huge swings back and forth and the last few posessions decide who is the lucky winner.
People complain about sock lenghts and hairstyle but this is smthg that should be adressed for next year at least.

[LegitSkillz]

Re: Scripted momentum/equalizer cheese

right, I was saying it happens in every seed, but to counter the point that QNo made about badges, I used 1-silver seeds as example to say most players dont have personality badges in those seeds, some dont have any badges...so that cant be an excuse for scripted play. I feel I have great bronze cards and play great defense but if I dont make an opponent quit...they usually make a monumental run that is just unprecedented. I was beating someone by 22 at halftime and they wouldnt quit. then all types of f***ery ensued and they came back within 2, I couldnt do jack about it.... then I regained momentum and beat em by 15. This shouldnt happen though because they were throwing up nonsense. 2k can deny it all they want and I wouldnt expect them to admit none of this anyway.

2k will always deny it. They know what the repercussions would be if they said otherwise. They want everyone to enjoy the game (causal and hardcore gamers). Too many good players winning all the time will bring in complaints from the less skilled players and less people will buy the game, thus resulting in less revenue for 2k. They need to create tiers or special tournaments for RTTP since after you finish the 1st seed you have to go through the cheese fest all over again to play it again. They need to be upfront about the clutch factor but to do that they would have to provide another alternative for hardcore gamers. And considering how 2k can be at times, getting new content is something I wouldn't hold my breath on lol


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