Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

[thejackal25]

I'm curious if anyone can provide any insight as to why the game requires teams to make a series of cuts gradually down throughout the preseason rather than just simply having a single cutdown day after the final preseason game.

IIRC IRL the NFL teams carry a preseason roster of roughly 90 players and then cut down to 75 players before the final preseason game. They then cut down to 53 before the regular season starts.

In Madden we have a maximum roster of 75 to begin with and then are forced to make a series of arbitrary cuts down to 53 throughout the preseason.

While it may not seem like a big deal since you likely end up with the same players on your final 53 when it's said and done, it does impact the game in two large ways.

1. It puts starters on the field more which can increase the risk of them having an injury. Nothing worse than seeing the CPU's starting HB go down with a serious injury because he was lined up at WR in the 4th quarter of a preseason game.

2. It impacts the development of young players who should be gaining XP through the preseason while also limiting how much time the user gets to experiment with fringe players before making decisions on who to cut.

Seems like changing the cut day parameters would be a relatively simple fix.

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

I'm pretty sure they do it to add another thing to do each week as a way to keep the user "engaged." I totally agree with you though and with only a 75-man roster there shouldn't be any cuts until after your last game for realism. I had heard that they changed this but was disappointed that it's still pretty much the same.

[Hooe]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

I'm pretty sure they do it to add another thing to do each week as a way to keep the user "engaged."

This is my shared impression.

I had heard that they changed this but was disappointed that it's still pretty much the same.

They did change it, most of the cuts are now in Weeks 3 and 4; there are very few cuts in Weeks 1 and 2 now. This was done to ensure a large enough roster to accommodate demoting lesser players to the practice squad (which takes place of players clearing through waivers, since Madden doesn't have a waiver concept).

[tubaSimulator]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

I'm pretty sure they do it to add another thing to do each week as a way to keep the user "engaged." I totally agree with you though and with only a 75-man roster there shouldn't be any cuts until after your last game for realism. I had heard that they changed this but was disappointed that it's still pretty much the same.

If they need to add arcade like details to keep the player "engaged" they haven't designed a very engaging mode to begin with, have they? I can't really get through the preseason at all at the moment - not if I want to have fun with CFM at least - because of the cut days being all wrong.

If you had the opportunity to move players to the practice squad in week 1 of preseason that would be unrealistic and arcade as well, but at least it would counter the stupidity of having to cut players in week 1. But since you can only move players to the PS in week 4, and by week 4 you only have exactly 53 + 10 players left, you basically have to plan out your 53-man roster and your practice squad in week 1. So, you might as well just cut down to 63 in week 1 and don't bother with cut days at all. Not only do the cut days in M17 defeat its purpose of being "engaging", but it also means the preseason is completely ruined for someone like me. It ruins immersion and defeats the purpose of having cut days at all in preseason.

I also wonder if cut days is the reason why some AI teams don't fill their PS with 10 players. By week 4 they may not have enough PS eligible players left. The first few times I started CFM I sure didn't have enough PS eligible players left by week 4 which is why I now have to plan everything out in week 1 instead.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

If they need to add arcade like details to keep the player "engaged" they haven't designed a very engaging mode to begin with, have they? I can't really get through the preseason at all at the moment - not if I want to have fun with CFM at least - because of the cut days being all wrong.

If you had the opportunity to move players to the practice squad in week 1 of preseason that would be unrealistic and arcade as well, but at least it would counter the stupidity of having to cut players in week 1. But since you can only move players to the PS in week 4, and by week 4 you only have exactly 53 + 10 players left, you basically have to plan out your 53-man roster and your practice squad in week 1. So, you might as well just cut down to 63 in week 1 and don't bother with cut days at all. Not only do the cut days in M17 defeat its purpose of being "engaging", but it also means the preseason is completely ruined for someone like me. It ruins immersion and defeats the purpose of having cut days at all in preseason.

I also wonder if cut days is the reason why some AI teams don't fill their PS with 10 players. By week 4 they may not have enough PS eligible players left. The first few times I started CFM I sure didn't have enough PS eligible players left by week 4 which is why I now have to plan everything out in week 1 instead.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Why don't they just do what the NFL does? I don't get it. You have enough to do looking at your roster early on to worry about cutting people week one. In week one you want to have fun looking at your late round draft picks, not cutting them .

[tubaSimulator]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

Weird question but I thought I'd keep it here since it seemed relevant to this thread;

If, in preseason week 1, you cut down from 75 to 72, is 72 then the new limit of players you can have on your roster that week, or could you sign 3 players from free agency, play the preseason game and then make cuts after the game but before you simulate to week 2? Ie. if I'm the Broncos and cut Trevor Simian as one of the three cuts in week 1, can I sign a different QB from FA to replace him for the week 1 game (bringing the total players on my roster back up to 73)?

[Hooe]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

If they need to add arcade like details to keep the player "engaged" they haven't designed a very engaging mode to begin with, have they?

It's not intended for you. It's for anyone who plays Franchise who doesn't have a strong grasp of how the NFL works.

Remember that not everyone who plays Madden enters the game with the same base level of knowledge as a hardcore OS Madden lifer. Heck, new gamers are buying consoles all the time, Madden NFL 17 might be the first football game some people will ever play. Remember also that that Madden is also actively attempting to expand its audience to bring new Madden players into the fold.

Accessibility of mechanics and a gradual learning curve is paramount to expanding a game's audience. The learning curve of football as a sport and the on-field components of Madden NFL are already steep enough as is, so (let's be honest about this) a small concession away from 100% authenticity with respect how preseason roster cutdowns are handled to ease a new user into the mode isn't really at all offensive in the grand scheme of things.

[guineapig71]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

I'm pretty sure that in real life there are certain dates in the league year the coincide with the week it is in preseason where teams have to cut their rosters down to a specific number of players to go into a preseason game with. The majority of which come after the second preseason game.

Boom... Documentation to back up this claim

http://www.thephinsider.com/2016/8/24/12621850/when-are-nfl-cuts-75-man-53-man-roster-preseason-2016

[tubaSimulator]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

It's not intended for you. It's for anyone who plays Franchise who doesn't have a strong grasp of how the NFL works.

Remember that not everyone who plays Madden enters the game with the same base level of knowledge as a hardcore OS Madden lifer. Heck, new gamers are buying consoles all the time, Madden NFL 17 might be the first football game some people will ever play. Remember also that that Madden is also actively attempting to expand its audience to bring new Madden players into the fold.

Accessibility of mechanics and a gradual learning curve is paramount to expanding a game's audience. The learning curve of football as a sport and the on-field components of Madden NFL are already steep enough as is, so (let's be honest about this) a small concession away from 100% authenticity with respect how preseason roster cutdowns are handled to ease a new user into the mode isn't really at all offensive in the grand scheme of things.

I understand what you're saying and I agree that the NFL and American football in general is very complex and need a learning curve. I'm even fine with the game only offering one type of contract to simplify that aspect.

But, when it comes to cut days it makes no sense. First of all, cut days is extremely simple to explain in a tutorial popup, something there could be a lot more of in CFM if its that complex. Secondly, I don't understand why it's a better learning curve to be forced to make cuts immediately with no tutorial than to get to grips with the game and the CFM first and then teach the player about cut days in week 4.

I usually don't mind when I can see how the developers have made changes that differ from real life because it's complicated and they need to simplify it for the player. But when they turn easy to understand stuff like cut days into an arcade feature, that's when I get annoyed.

[tubaSimulator]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

I'm pretty sure that in real life there are certain dates in the league year the coincide with the week it is in preseason where teams have to cut their rosters down to a specific number of players to go into a preseason game with. The majority of which come after the second preseason game.

Boom... Documentation to back up this claim
http://www.thephinsider.com/2016/8/2...preseason-2016

This was already covered in the opening post:

"IIRC IRL the NFL teams carry a preseason roster of roughly 90 players and then cut down to 75 players before the final preseason game. They then cut down to 53 before the regular season starts"

You have to cut down from 90 to 75 after the 3rd preseason game and down to 53 (+10 practice squad players) after the 4th preseason game.

[Zuke]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

Madden has a 74 roster limit but cfm has a 72. So when you start a league the cpu cuts players to get down to 72. This sucks for 32 man CFM leagues.

[Hooe]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

But, when it comes to cut days it makes no sense. First of all, cut days is extremely simple to explain in a tutorial popup, something there could be a lot more of in CFM if its that complex. Secondly, I don't understand why it's a better learning curve to be forced to make cuts immediately with no tutorial than to get to grips with the game and the CFM first and then teach the player about cut days in week 4.

It makes plenty of sense from a game design perspective:

- Requiring cuts as soon as the first week of the preseason establishes the concept of roster management as a core component of Franchise right out the gate. A new user is taught immediately that his team's roster space is finite, that he must remove players to proceed to the next week of the preseason, and that he will more than likely need to manage his roster again in the future in other capacities.

- By requiring two cuts in the first week, the new user is taught about roster management basics in a low-pressure situation. Very often the battle for the 72nd spot on the roster doesn't involve a player with a high OVR, so almost any player the user selects to cut via the Big Decisions UI will not hurt him in the long run. This limits the opportunity for a new user to make a mistake which might screw himself over in the later stages of the mode.

- By not forcing all the cuts in preseason week 4, the game doesn't overload the user with too much information. Telling a new user to cut a roster down from 75 to 53 (with a practice squad to fill on top of that, that happens simultaneously in preseason week 4) in one gameplay step is actually asking a lot of new and inexperienced players. It's a ton of player comparisons and balancing decisions to make in a very short period of time. The current approach eases the learning curve of the mode by limiting the number of pieces the user must interact with at one time.

As to tutorial pop-ups: the best way to teach the user a game mechanic is to actually walk them through doing it. Simply showing a static text blurb which can be easily and mindlessly dismissed is actually quite lazy nowadays. A staged and guided walk through of mechanics is always better, if possible. Madden doesn't go as far as full-on gated handholding - it is possible to delegate all roster management tasks to the CPU - but it does provide many obvious prompts which lead the user into performing the relevant actions on his own. The user subsequently learns the video game by actually playing it rather than reading about how to play it, stays engaged, and is more likely to progress further into the game with an established base knowledge level now in his possession.

[tubaSimulator]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

Good and valid points that makes sense. Still think it should be an option at the very least. I guess I'm in the minority group EA isn't design a game for, but with a few more things optional maybe they could've included people like me a bit better as well. I understand they want to appeal to new players but in the process it feels like they are neglecting the hard-core players who've already sunk hundreds of hours into franchise mode over the years and just want a more realistic and better experience.

But that's another discussion

[tubaSimulator]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

Madden has a 74 roster limit but cfm has a 72. So when you start a league the cpu cuts players to get down to 72. This sucks for 32 man CFM leagues.

So, it's only 74 players even though when you choose Preseason as Starting point for your CFM the game says 75? Good to know. Have you tried to sign 2-3 players in week 1 of preseason if you only have 72 players to begin with?

[bucky60]

Re: Why are preseason cuts handled this way?

It's not intended for you. It's for anyone who plays Franchise who doesn't have a strong grasp of how the NFL works.

Remember that not everyone who plays Madden enters the game with the same base level of knowledge as a hardcore OS Madden lifer. Heck, new gamers are buying consoles all the time, Madden NFL 17 might be the first football game some people will ever play. Remember also that that Madden is also actively attempting to expand its audience to bring new Madden players into the fold.

Accessibility of mechanics and a gradual learning curve is paramount to expanding a game's audience. The learning curve of football as a sport and the on-field components of Madden NFL are already steep enough as is, so (let's be honest about this) a small concession away from 100% authenticity with respect how preseason roster cutdowns are handled to ease a new user into the mode isn't really at all offensive in the grand scheme of things.

So new gamer's with limited knowledge of the NFL will be LOST if cuts were done at the end of preseason vs doing them from week 1 to week 4? I don't get what your point is here as applied to pre-season cut down dates. How is understanding one over the other any more difficult for someone with limited football knowledge?

EDIT: Saw your post above, and really? A new user would be lost to the importance of rosters if cuts were at the end of preseason? vs starting in week 1? A customer really wouldn't learn about rosters and cuts unless it was done immediately? I really don't see the major significance in learning curve.