If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

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  • dsk1317
    Rookie
    • Jun 2013
    • 204

    #1

    If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.


    The Packers 2-4-5, 3 safety personnel package.

    In week 5, the Packers held the Giants to under 50 yards rushing, and they never had fewer than 5 defensive backs on the field. That's right, the packers never had their 34 personnel on the field, regardless of the Giants offensive personnel. Think about that, let it sink in.


    Recreated the same look, by spreading my linebackers, shifting my D-line to the left, and walking my strong safety down into the box.





    The Packers shutdown the Falcons dangerous running attack, and here are the stats to prove it.

    The following article reveals something worth noting. This is nothing new, and in fact, it was the base defense of the 96 Packers.
    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...efensive-trend

    The Lions remained in their big nickel package, even against heavy personnel.
    Please, just read the articles, because the game is changing.

    Miles Killebrew, the Lions rookie hybrid safety.




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    Last edited by dsk1317; 04-05-2017, 06:40 PM.
  • LBzrule
    Hall Of Fame
    • Jul 2002
    • 13085

    #2
    Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

    Could this be because of the offensive formation and personnel set though and the fact that the Giants do not have a good rushing attack? GB didn't try that against Dallas for instance. I don't think this is an either or thing. The biggest issue with Madden is that this can and does work against every team and I don't think it should.

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    • dsk1317
      Rookie
      • Jun 2013
      • 204

      #3
      Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

      They shut down the Falcons OZ scheme, and they did it with their nickel package.

      Sent from my XT1080 using Operation Sports mobile app
      Last edited by dsk1317; 04-01-2017, 05:35 PM.

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      • LBzrule
        Hall Of Fame
        • Jul 2002
        • 13085

        #4
        Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

        Originally posted by dsk1317
        They shut down the Falcons OZ scheme, and they did it with their nickel package.

        Sent from my XT1080 using Operation Sports mobile app
        again, not denying that. The issue is there's a reason they did not run this against everyone. In madden you can run it against everyone with the same results. That's a problem.

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        • Madden08PCgmr
          MVP
          • Feb 2017
          • 2441

          #5
          Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

          Problem #1;

          You are discussing the Packers defense.

          They have no defense.. So this is all hypothetical.


          Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
          You want free speech?
          Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours.

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          • dsk1317
            Rookie
            • Jun 2013
            • 204

            #6
            Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

            Originally posted by Madden08PCgmr
            Problem #1;

            You are discussing the Packers defense.

            They have no defense.. So this is all hypothetical.


            Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
            Problem number one, I'm presenting hard data, so it's not hypothetical.

            Sent from my XT1080 using Operation Sports mobile app

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            • Senor Tortilla
              Rookie
              • Feb 2016
              • 42

              #7
              Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

              Originally posted by dsk1317
              Problem number one, I'm presenting hard data, so it's not hypothetical.

              Sent from my XT1080 using Operation Sports mobile app
              You are presenting hard data, but one game is hardly sufficient evidence. The NFL season is 16 games long for a reason. Also, you have to look at the circumstances that this event occurred under. The Giants finished 29th in rushing last season. They had no balance, making staying in a nickel/dime defense much more viable.

              This is not to say that a base-nickel defense is impossible, only that the data sample provided is too small to conclude that it can be relied upon on a week-to-week basis.

              Comment

              • dsk1317
                Rookie
                • Jun 2013
                • 204

                #8
                Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

                Originally posted by Senor Tortilla
                You are presenting hard data, but one game is hardly sufficient evidence. The NFL season is 16 games long for a reason. Also, you have to look at the circumstances that this event occurred under. The Giants finished 29th in rushing last season. They had no balance, making staying in a nickel/dime defense much more viable.

                This is not to say that a base-nickel defense is impossible, only that the data sample provided is too small to conclude that it can be relied upon on a week-to-week basis.
                So far, I've presented two games, and I'm currently working on compiling more data. If you read the last article I posted, you'll see the Packers are far from the only team to use this scheme. Coaches do not care about being "sim," their only concern is getting their best eleven players on the field -- even if it's by unconventional means -- and doesn't fit into someones preconceived notion of "sim."

                Sent from my XT1080 using Operation Sports mobile app

                Comment

                • Hooe
                  Hall Of Fame
                  • Aug 2002
                  • 21555

                  #9
                  Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

                  Something that Madden is going to have to do going forward with more and more teams basing out of nickel sets is giving the nickel back have more responsibility against the run. In many of the nickel defensive run fits in-game, the nickel back doesn't have an assignment, so you have fewer defenders playing against the run in the nickel, which makes your run defense immediately weaker even if you have Ronnie Lott as your nickel back for whatever reason.

                  While I can respect this from a gameplay balance standpoint - pulling linebackers off the field should make my run defense weaker, and it very much does - it's not really representative of the way the NFL is trending. If I recall correctly, PFF tracked that defenses deployed nickel personnel on something like 55% of all defensive snaps in 2016. It's not just the Packers basing out of nickel, it's nearly the entire league, and NFL defenses are managing to not get shredded by the run each week despite this dramatic shift in defensive philosophy.

                  EDIT: the number for snaps in nickel percentage was actually 63%, and that was from 2015, and that number has gone up every season since 2008.
                  Last edited by Hooe; 04-02-2017, 03:03 AM.

                  Comment

                  • seanhazz1
                    Rookie
                    • Nov 2006
                    • 416

                    #10
                    Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

                    Your 55% number is a bit out of context. Usually 50% of the league is playing from behind late each week, so they are passing(more plays), and teams not named Atlanta, run when ahead to chew clock, later in games(less plays), so normally they are not passing when ahead late, giving you a semi-constant 5%+ increase above average. The REAL counter to THAT constant nickel formation use, is a heavy or 2TE set(will need a 2nd TE like the Pays use) . You won't line up nickel against AP.! Most TEs tend to push around most DBs. "Brady" up, make proper reads at the line and Take your 3-4 yards rinse and repeat til they change up. As mentioned above, it can be effective and frustrating but won't hold up under the constant barrage of grinding (3-5 yes) the all game, add in a strategic no huddle and audible on occasion and soon the whole D will be red, with lowly backups getting burned.


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                    • LBzrule
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Jul 2002
                      • 13085

                      #11
                      Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

                      Originally posted by dsk1317
                      So far, I've presented two games, and I'm currently working on compiling more data. If you read the last article I posted, you'll see the Packers are far from the only team to use this scheme. Coaches do not care about being "sim," their only concern is getting their best eleven players on the field -- even if it's by unconventional means -- and doesn't fit into someones preconceived notion of "sim."

                      Sent from my XT1080 using Operation Sports mobile app
                      To me the argument goes both ways. Sure several teams stay in Nickel a great deal and that goes up every season as offenses go to more spread looks. But I think the data that needs to be looked at especially relative to Madden is to look at the success of Nickel vs the Run from 12, 21, 22 personnel on a snap by snap basis. Madden success rate vs the run from those personnel sets is high.

                      Comment

                      • dsk1317
                        Rookie
                        • Jun 2013
                        • 204

                        #12
                        Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

                        I know it's used heavily against 21 and 12 personnel, especially 12, but I still need to find info about 22, 13, and 23 personnel. For the record, I can see both sides of it, too.

                        Sent from my XT1080 using Operation Sports mobile app
                        Last edited by dsk1317; 04-02-2017, 09:41 AM.

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                        • dsk1317
                          Rookie
                          • Jun 2013
                          • 204

                          #13
                          Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

                          Originally posted by LBzrule
                          To me the argument goes both ways. Sure several teams stay in Nickel a great deal and that goes up every season as offenses go to more spread looks. But I think the data that needs to be looked at especially relative to Madden is to look at the success of Nickel vs the Run from 12, 21, 22 personnel on a snap by snap basis. Madden success rate vs the run from those personnel sets is high.
                          I know it's used heavily against 21 and 12 personnel, especially 12, but I still need to find info about 22, 13, and 23 personnel. For the record, I can see both sides of it, too.

                          Sent from my XT1080 using Operation Sports mobile app

                          Comment

                          • dsk1317
                            Rookie
                            • Jun 2013
                            • 204

                            #14
                            Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

                            Originally posted by CM Hooe
                            Something that Madden is going to have to do going forward with more and more teams basing out of nickel sets is giving the nickel back have more responsibility against the run. In many of the nickel defensive run fits in-game, the nickel back doesn't have an assignment, so you have fewer defenders playing against the run in the nickel, which makes your run defense immediately weaker even if you have Ronnie Lott as your nickel back for whatever reason.

                            While I can respect this from a gameplay balance standpoint - pulling linebackers off the field should make my run defense weaker, and it very much does - it's not really representative of the way the NFL is trending. If I recall correctly, PFF tracked that defenses deployed nickel personnel on something like 55% of all defensive snaps in 2016. It's not just the Packers basing out of nickel, it's nearly the entire league, and NFL defenses are managing to not get shredded by the run each week despite this dramatic shift in defensive philosophy.

                            EDIT: the number for snaps in nickel percentage was actually 63%, and that was from 2015, and that number has gone up every season since 2008.
                            Thanks for the added info!

                            Sent from my XT1080 using Operation Sports mobile app

                            Comment

                            • Hooe
                              Hall Of Fame
                              • Aug 2002
                              • 21555

                              #15
                              Re: If You Have A Rigid Idea of Sim Style Play, Read This.

                              Originally posted by seanhazz1
                              Your 55% number is a bit out of context.
                              You're right, that number is out of context. Let me add context.

                              ---



                              In 2016:

                              - All 32 teams deployed 11 personnel (1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WR) as their most frequently-used personnel grouping on plays where the offense held the lead (or the score was tied). The most extreme example of this philosophy are the New York Giants, who used 11 personnel on 91% of snaps in this scenario.

                              - 25 of 32 NFL teams deployed 11 personnel at least 50% of the time on plays where they held the lead or tie.

                              - 21 of 32 NFL teams deployed 11 personnel most frequently when holding the lead or tie and the distance to the first down marker was 5 yards or less (regardless of down).

                              - 25 of 32 NFL teams deployed 11 personnel most frequently on 1st down while holding a lead or tie.

                              - 26 of 32 NFL teams deployed 11 personnel most frequently on 1st and 10 plays outside the red zone while holding a lead or tie.

                              - 30 of 32 NFL teams deployed 11 personnel most frequently on 3rd or 4th down with 3 yards or less to go while holding a lead or tie.

                              - 16 of 32 NFL teams deployed 11 personnel most frequently in 4th quarter or overtime while holding a lead of at least 9 points. Both the Atlanta Falcons and New England Patriots are among these 16 teams.

                              ---

                              tl;dr - 11 personnel is the new "pro set".

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