Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

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  • DeuceDouglas
    Madden Dev Team
    • Apr 2010
    • 4297

    #1

    Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

    Now that we have a setting that is essentially dedicated to the simulation community, I think it's important as ever that we provide feedback for it in a way that is both as organized and constructive as possible under one roof. I'm really hoping that this can be a place where we can compile a ton of solid and usable feedback with most of the talk being about what to improve or what the setting does well and I really don't want this to be another place for people to pine about how it's pointless because EA will never listen or that they only care about MUT and such. If they don't listen and ignore us all together anyway, then so be it. But as it stands this is the first year we have something like this that without debate is specifically aimed and made for us so while it may not be where we want it to be right now (I know it isn't for me), I believe we hold the power to shape it as well as dictate it's direction moving forward which I think is the most important thing. If you don't choose to believe that, believe me, I completely understand and I'll tell you to not waste your time. But as of right now I'm willing to at least give it a shot moving forward and try to provide the feedback needed to make it the best it can be not only this year, but also moving forward.

    A couple of things that I always keep in mind when providing feedback. With anything try to make sure it's based on a fairly significant sample size. Try to base feedback on something like at least 10+ games. If you get sacked 8 times in a game, pass blocking doesn't need to be automatically tuned. I've played 30+ games and have had an extremely wide array of games so don't let one game speak volumes. If you play 10 games and something is consistently popping up or standing out then it makes the feedback much more reliable and valuable. Certain things are obviously legacy issues and I get that but I still feel like sample size is something important with those as well to gage the variance of the issue. If you disagree with someones feedback or aren't experiencing the same issue, explain your experience, what you're seeing, and why you think it might not be an issue. Try to avoid the one-off statements discrediting someone's feedback just because you may not have experienced it. If you agree with it, like their post, quote it and expand upon it, provide more clips regarding the issue, etc. We shouldn't be having debates as much as solid back and forth with the ultimate goal being simulation being the most realistic representation of the NFL possible.

    Another thing is to always try and specify what settings you're using. If you're playing on All-Madden, you're going to see some things that aren't necessarily going to fall into "Sim" from the CPU simply because it's made to be that way and override ratings and outcomes to create difficulty. Same with if you're playing on Pro or Rookie. Just try to keep that in mind.

    Lastly, try to provide video evidence whenever possible whether it be in the form of clips or GIF's. With Xbox I know that it's easier than ever to record clips and turn them into GIF's. I'm not sure how easy it is on PS4 but I know there is a similar clip recording mechanic there as well so if you're seeing an issue, record it whenever you see it. Not all problems necessarily require this but it quite literally never hurts and only helps immensely to not only be able to discuss your issue but to also have a visual to go along with it.

    I'll get it started but before I do I want to mention that I'm not going to mention coverage for a couple of reasons. One, I've already beat it to death pretty good in the impressions thread and then secondly, I feel like that's more of a universal issue with the game and it's supposed to be getting fixed in the next couple weeks so I'll wait until then before I feel comfortable judging anything more in that area. Lastly, I only play vs. CPU so my feedback will be heavily slanted towards that but I'm hoping people in online leagues will post a bunch of H2H feedback based on their experience as well. The more feedback the better.

    AI Quarterback Play (Pocket Awareness/Scrambling/Decision Making)

    So this has been a hot topic since pre-release and that's AI QB play and I'm going to try and touch on all the issues that I've come across in my time playing.

    Pocket Awareness (Statue QB's)

    This seems to be the big one. I've seen this repeatedly on both default All-Madden and default All-Pro. Here's a video of what I'm referring to:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/UO1Vy41hCpc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    So as you can see there, a lot of different types of QB's and just a general lack of awareness all-around to what is happening around them as well as a huge reluctance to even move. I'd like to say these were the only cases but in reality these were just the worst of the worst and this has been extremely common in my time playing. It seems to be the most common on shot plays and verticals or really any play where deep routes are the main focus however I've also seen it on multiple occasions with scat and curls plays where if there's decent coverage initially the QB just doesn't react to it in any way.

    Scrambling/QB Movement/Decision Making

    So this pretty much goes along side the last issue. When QB's hardly move in the pocket it's safe to expect they won't scramble either and that's been the case for me by-and-large with Madden 18. The additional issue with AI QB play is that when QB's actually do move, it's not exactly intelligently:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/J0ZFl4mo_2E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    To add to this, the CPU seems to have this really odd hangup with the LOS. You could see it in the last video with Winston where he goes to scramble and literally turns around and runs away from it. Here's a few more examples:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Wp3dO9EdGVY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    This results in a lot of really mind boggling throws by the CPU as well as often a illegal forward pass penalty when there's yardage to be had if they just threw sooner or decided to scramble instead. In this video you can also see a couple good examples of exactly the type of QB movement that I'd like to see a more regular basis. The Luck and Wilson plays where they completed illegal forward passes would be perfect if they scrambled or threw the ball a tad sooner. The problem is plays like that are just so few and far between and then when you do finally get them, that happens.

    One last thing regarding this and that's screen passes. This is a smaller issue as screen passes aren't all that common from the CPU and they will run them properly most of the time, however IMO stuff like this should never be happening:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PI153yAluMQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    It's a one-read throw and it's either there or it isn't. Barring a freak occurence (which isn't really replicated in Madden), QB's should never be willingly taking sacks on screen passes on my opinion and should either be throwing to the back or chucking it away (or into the ground would be a nice touch). Again, not a huge issue and no where near as common or prevalent as the one's I've listed prior but still something that I'd like to see improved upon in terms of AI QB play.

    QB Accuracy

    This seems to be the age old Madden problem. Hell, they even named a draft pick in CFM after the issue a few years back. I was hoping that this would be a distinct feature of the Simulation this year but after playing I can say that it isn't the case unfortunately. Whether it's been default All-Madden or default All-Pro, I've noticed that QB's on both sides hardly ever miss. I will say it is better on the user side and you will definitely miss from time to time but as for the CPU, they have far away been pinpoint accurate on both settings. I will also say that I've had good luck with moving the QB accuracy down and getting better results so that's a definite positive. However, I feel like on simulation the goal should be to replicate QB accuracy at the default level and in it's current state I feel like it's a good way away from doing so.

    I don't have any videos here just because I don't think it's that necessary for the issue but I do have some data. Over 15 games of default All-Pro both me and the CPU had around 68-69% completion percentage. Now that doesn't sound that bad but from time playing the vast majority of incompletions came on drops by receivers, knockouts or dropped picks and I was lucky to see one or two inaccuracies from the CPU in any given game. On All-Madden it was like once every few games. This is one of those areas where the numbers don't always do a good job of telling the whole story as was the case with Madden 17 where you could get accurate completion percentages but it was largely as a result of a ton of throwaways and throws out of sacks.

    What I'd like to see is an accuracy decrease across the board in terms of SAC, MAC, DAC. It seems like no matter who the QB is they are absurdly accurate on anything short no matter what. While I agree this should predominantly be the case, the fact is that QB's still miss these throws and even the best ones miss them. I think there should just be more random misses when using any QB. Obviously a guy like Brady should miss less than a guy like Bortles but overall I think everyone could stand to be off target more than they currently are.

    Kick Accuracy

    This has been something I've beaten the drum for a while now and did extensive testing with in Madden 17 and now with the Simulation setting there's no reason for this to not be something that is FAR more challenging than it currently is. If you need an example, feel free to waste five minutes of your time watching this Ray Finkle FG Montage:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/4m0Jpg4URtc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    That's a created Ray Finkle nailing every FG from 60+ yards out with 57 KAC which is as bad as the rating can possibly be without every kick resulting in a shank. Also, ignore the 0 accuracy slider in that video. For some reason that slider is backwards inside practice so all of the kicks were actually on default and if you turn it to anything lower than 35 every kick will result in a shank. But to the video, not one miss at all and not even close to one and with a K that has 20 points less than the worst rated kicker in the game. So that tells me that ratings in the kicking game definitively don't matter on the user side. Now from the testing I did last year, I can say that the ratings did matter for the CPU side but really only from 50+ yards so that could use some work too .

    This creates two problems. One, there is essentially no possible chance of a missed XP's outside of a blocked kick. The NFL specifically changed this rule to create just that but in Madden it's like nothing changed. The other is that, as a user, once you're inside FG range whether it be 40-60+ yards, you know there is very little chance of missing a FG unless you do something drastically wrong.

    Look at the Lions a couple years ago where they had three different kickers in the first six weeks of the season. Say hello to Blair Walsh and his 27-yard shank job. Did anybody watch the Seahawks-Cardinals thriller last year? Let's not even look further than the last game NFL game that counted. And even when kicks are good, they are far from automatic. Kicking NEEDS to be tough and on the simulation setting having a good or bad kicker NEEDS to matter.

    As for a solution, I don't know if it's something that can be tuned but the main problem I see is that there is hardly (if at all) any difference between hitting the accuracy in the light blue area vs. the dark blue "perfect" area. I am adamant that a kick like this should be missed:

    <iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/PoorDrearyGuernseycow' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' allowfullscreen width='640' height='360'></iframe>

    44 yards out and I missed the accuracy about as bad as you could without missing it completely and it was still perfect. So the solution:


    Dark Blue - Perfect. Kick goes right where you aimed it.
    Light Blue - Scaled penalty based on the distance you miss from the perfect area.

    On shorter kicks there'd be a larger room for error just because of the shorter distance but on longer kicks you'd pay for missing the meter like in the GIF but if you were close and had a good kicker you'll probably be okay and then on really long kicks would almost certainly be no good if you missed it at all which is how I feel it should be.

    Clock Management/Decision Making/CPU Playcalling

    Clock Management/Decision Making

    So another one of those legacy Madden issues here. I don't have many clips here but I'll talk about what I have:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EVefO3zUWOs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    Okay, so the first clip is where I've noticed the most issues and that's at the end of the first half. I know RyanMoody posted a video that went over this same type of scenario and this first clip is really, really bad. The CPU really lacks an urgency when it comes to the first half winding down. Up until the end here, they were actually doing a decent job and seemed like they were going for points but from my experience if the game is tied or they're ahead at all, they won't show any urgency to score. It will work out for them occasionally because they're not penalized for constantly huddling up or changing personnel but that's besides the point. They have :20 seconds and a timeout from their second to last play and they both let the clock run and then wait until there's two seconds left to snap the ball wasting every opportunity they had at scoring.

    Second clip is part one of two and this is a bit more debatable. 2:29 to go and one timeout for me, they run up the middle and I use my last time out. My issue is with the next call. They have an opportunity with two more runs to run the clock down to at the very most 1:20 by just running the ball twice. Instead they throw an incomplete pass on second down which forces them into 3rd and long where even if they run the clock I still get the two minute warning and pretty much a full two minutes to win the game. Again, it's debatable but I'd really like to see them run there and take it to the two minute warning and then decide whether or not to throw on 3rd down. It ended up working out for them as they picked up the first down anyway which brings me to the next clip...

    So the third clip, the game is over. 2:00 to go. No timeouts. Three kneels and the game is books. Instead they decide to run on not just first down but second down as well. They don't pay for it and the likelihood is rare that they would but that's basically an opportunity that the CPU is taking to potentially throw the game away. Just take the knees and don't risk anything there.

    Last clip is again probably debatable. I've got two timeouts but they're up 15 and in FG range to make it a three score game after the first play and they're still running shot plays. It's just a place where I'd like to see them be a bit more conservative and aware of the situation. The likelihood of them losing because of it is, again, small but it's an opportunity that they're willingly creating themselves when they don't need to. I think the CPU looks at opponents timeouts as too much of a factor in what they're doing and thinks there's a ton of time left when really there isn't plus they're up two scores.

    And one more thing smaller thing when it comes to CPU decision making:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VQDnIsR9K3s" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    This is only one clip but this is something I encountered quite a bit in Madden 17 and have already seen on a few occasions in 18. There's no real need to attempt a 61-yard FG there. I know that the reason why they kick it is because the game is telling them if they hit it perfect they will but the reality is that they pretty much never do and in a game like that where it's been a defensive battle they shouldn't be giving up something as important as field position by doing something like that. In this case it ended up completely changing the face of the entire game from that point and I would like to see the CPU value field position over long FG's like this outside of when it's absolutely necessary like to tie the game late in the fourth or at the end of a game or half.

    Playcalling

    I won't get into it too much but the main thing I want to touch on is the CPU being more creative on third downs. The amount of times the CPU runs 4 Verts on anything longer than 3rd and 5 is something I'd like to see heavily tweaked if not almost all together eliminated. The CPU has always had issues executing the play well and it is pretty much every single teams go to on a passing 3rd Down situation.

    Diving Catches

    This is a smaller thing as diving catches aren't very common but one thing that has stuck out to me so far in M18 is that they're never dropped. Every time I've seen one attempted it's been caught and I've seen RB's making them as well as guys with unspectacular spectacular catch ratings. It's been universal as well. I've seen my players make more than a few that I've questioned and said to myself that they shouldn't have caught. I feel like diving catches should be more of a 50/50 thing even for the best players. But honestly, this isn't a huge issue or anything, just something I noticed in my time playing.
  • Kazumonk
    Rookie
    • Jul 2014
    • 77

    #2
    Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

    I know people have been saying that their QB's rarely miss a pass, but that's not been my experience at all. I've been playing on default AM, and my buddy and I have fairly meh QB's. We get misses all the time on short-medium passes. Strangely enough, it seems like the deep balls are more accurate than the short ones despite the ratings.

    Comment

    • BigSexy
      Rookie
      • Aug 2017
      • 144

      #3
      Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

      I only have a few gripes before the big patch comes out in September: the statue quarterbacks as mentioned (it's awful trying to play as a TE in CFM), the missed extra points, and the awareness for other position players.

      Otherwise, Sim isn't so bad. I've been running with it since day one and haven't had too many problems other than the ones mentioned above.


      Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

      Comment

      • mykelmosinee
        Rookie
        • Oct 2014
        • 304

        #4
        Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

        I don't have faith in their "3 seperate modes" of gameplay.
        Already hearing issues with the other modes playing more sim than the supposed sim mode.
        How can sim mode be SO unsim?? I just don't get it.
        Is it their version of what they think is sim gameplay, or did they mislabel the modes? Is it a lack of understanding of football, or is it a lack of talent to produce a sim game?
        If sim doesn't play realistically, what chance do we have of having them fix it? Apparently, they felt sim mode played the most realistically of the 3 modes...as this is how it was released.
        And that's on top of the huge amount of bugs, glitches, and broken elements. Just the fact that the game struggles so badly on a standard PS4 tells me the level of testing the game got before release.

        Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

        Comment

        • jfsolo
          Live Action, please?
          • May 2003
          • 12965

          #5
          Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

          Before I could even post someone already threw a hand grenade into the thread, but anyway, I hope that this thread is about being solutions oriented and doesn't devolve into a trash EA thread. There are plenty of other threads for that.
          Jordan Mychal Lemos
          @crypticjordan

          Do this today: Instead of $%*#!@& on a game you're not going to play or movie you're not going to watch, say something good about a piece of media you're excited about.

          Do the same thing tomorrow. And the next. Now do it forever.

          Comment

          • secondsolution
            Pro
            • May 2012
            • 541

            #6
            Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

            The CPU QB accuracy is the thing that I've noticed that needs the most work. It feels like every CPU QB is Tom Brady. I think that it is the result of pass rush being in effective 50% of the time (players just sit there being blocked) and coverage (particularly zone) being completely oblivious to what's going on

            Comment

            • reyes the roof
              Hall Of Fame
              • Mar 2009
              • 11526

              #7
              Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

              Originally posted by Kazumonk
              I know people have been saying that their QB's rarely miss a pass, but that's not been my experience at all. I've been playing on default AM, and my buddy and I have fairly meh QB's. We get misses all the time on short-medium passes. Strangely enough, it seems like the deep balls are more accurate than the short ones despite the ratings.
              I brought the accuracy slider down to 25 so take this with a grain of salt, but I've had a good amount of missed throws. The cpu hasn't had as many but they've had some and they generally are able to make a thrown in a clean pocket

              Comment

              • roadman
                *ll St*r
                • Aug 2003
                • 26339

                #8
                Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

                Duece;

                Are you specifying CFM or Play Now or both?

                The reason I ask is because based on past years results, CFM test out differently vs Play Now and vice versa.

                And for Pete's sake, if you don't have the game, ignore this thread like the plague, please. Like Duece stated, at least 10 games under your belt.

                I'll chime in later in the week, it's been a helter skelter personal schedule.

                Comment

                • dman08
                  Pro
                  • Jan 2008
                  • 754

                  #9
                  Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

                  I can definitely agree with the areas you have talked about. The statue sack is killing the game for me right now. I have my sliders almost perfect but the inflated sacks because of the zombie like qb is definitely taking away from the game's immersion. Qb accuracy on default is way too high. I think qb accuracy at 25 should be the new default on simulation (I have mines at 17 to really differentiate top tier qbs). Now I'm gonna get to your playcalling synopsis. I completely agree with your assessment but I think playcalling as a whole needs a facelift. The funny thing is the answer has been in madden for years with gameflow. The problem is EA has yet to invest in this feature. The plays called are based on down and distance. EA continues to reevaluate playbooks each year but refuse to plug these new plays and formations into gameflow and rate them based on how often teams ran these plays last season so that the cpu can call these plays. This would be a game changer because the cpu would play more like their real life counterparts and strategy would be of utmost importance as well as scouting a team. Once they address this the game will finally play closer to what we see on Sundays. My last issue is something that you didn't bring up. Penalties! Now I use to adjust penalties until I saw a realistic number per game for penalty yardage. However, recently I've come to realize that adjusting these affects the gameplay negatively. The game plays so much better with penalties at default but you'll rarely ever see penalties called. With them currently at default I only see false starts being called (for some reason only against my team). We definitely need more penalties on default so that we don't have to sacrifice gameplay by adjusting those numbers. I wanna see 30-60 yards of penalties for each team per game. Holding should be the most called penalty followed by false starts. We finally have wr/db interactions down field but how is it SIM if there's never any pass interference calls? We definitely need more penalties on default.
                  Last edited by dman08; 08-30-2017, 03:19 AM.
                  Watch me at twitch.tv/dmanchi

                  Comment

                  • dman08
                    Pro
                    • Jan 2008
                    • 754

                    #10
                    Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

                    I forgot to mention this but now that the ball carrier moves work better this year can we please make the cpu pull off moves other than the spin move? I feel like tendencies should be in place based on attributes so that a back like McCoy would use his juke move more since that is his highest rated ball carrier move. As it is now the AI ball carrier does the spin move 80% of the time
                    Watch me at twitch.tv/dmanchi

                    Comment

                    • ggsimmonds
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 11235

                      #11
                      Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

                      Just want to mention some of my observations.

                      -QB AccuracyI have been missing passes, as has the AI at a decent enough percentage, the problem is that it is random, and the chances of misfires are equal across the board. I can complete deep passes with pinpoint accuracy and then turn around and miss a slant or spot route by more than 5 yards.
                      Solution: DAC should be universally lowered on the sim setting

                      Yards per play/number of big plays It is better than it has been in the past, seems like each game both me and the AI have 10+ play drives, but scores are still a little higher than I like with realistic number of plays.
                      Solution: I'm hopeful this will improve with the patch, as I think the primary culprit is poor safety play.

                      Playcalling. Their AI playcalling needs to be rebuilt from scratch. Gameplan feature is what, 4 years old and we haven't seen any improvements here. But this is not unique to sim setting, so I'll leave it at that.

                      Defense reaction to QB scrambling. It is dreadful. If a defender is in a zone it seems like they ignore the QB until he passes the LOS. I have had the AI call 4 verts, then the QB intelligently rolled out. So far so good. Then the LB who was spying him followed the QB, and stared at him from 5 yards away, with no one in between. On my side, Flacco is on pace for over 500 yards scrambling, even though I may only take off twice a game. But each time I do I am getting over 20 yards because the defense ignores him until he passes the LOS.
                      Solution: Why did they remove the R3 button to tell defender to pursue QB? For the AI, just fix the logic.

                      Time to pass. Think this only affects the AI, as I am getting a realistic time to pass, but I couldn't tell you how many times the QB stood like a statue for 5< seconds, then hit a dowfield receiver who was running back to the LOS. I'd ballpark it at adding 70 yards in passing yards each game. And we are not talking about a play breaking down and the QB improvising like Big Ben. I'm talking about WR running a post route, then running all the way back down the middle of the field catching a pass.
                      Solution: Since users don't seem to have this problem/gift, make pass rushers on user team more likely to win with each second that passes. And fix the AI QB logic to understand what to do when all routes are covered. Either scramble or throw it away instead of doing nothing

                      AI in general. It needs improvement at every level of the game, from scheming, playcalling, on field decision making, etc. Can't do this in a patch, and I sincerely hope that EA makes better AI a focal point next year.

                      Comment

                      • timhere1970
                        MVP
                        • Sep 2013
                        • 1810

                        #12
                        Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

                        The qb ai has been discussed ad nauseum. It has been a problem for years, they know about it and it continues to get worse. I can not fathom a reason for that. Something else as far as gameplay goes is defenders not doing what thay are supposed to do. I had a cover three called and the deep safety and the right corner back blitzed on the snap. Easy touchdown of course. I Just Thought Mike Tomlin Isn't My Coach So Why Is My Defense PLAYING Like THE STEELERS Against belechek. It doesn't bother me as much as the qb ai because defenders do miss assignments in the nfl but when your linebackers or corners decide to switch sides of the field on the snap it looks bad.

                        Comment

                        • ggsimmonds
                          Hall Of Fame
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 11235

                          #13
                          Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

                          Originally posted by timhere1970
                          The qb ai has been discussed ad nauseum. It has been a problem for years, they know about it and it continues to get worse. I can not fathom a reason for that. Something else as far as gameplay goes is defenders not doing what thay are supposed to do. I had a cover three called and the deep safety and the right corner back blitzed on the snap. Easy touchdown of course. I Just Thought Mike Tomlin Isn't My Coach So Why Is My Defense PLAYING Like THE STEELERS Against belechek. It doesn't bother me as much as the qb ai because defenders do miss assignments in the nfl but when your linebackers or corners decide to switch sides of the field on the snap it looks bad.
                          Sure you didn't run commit or audible? I've never heard of this happening

                          Comment

                          • Haze88
                            Pro
                            • Oct 2010
                            • 667

                            #14
                            Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

                            My issue with the QBs besides the obvious is the perfect reads they all make. There's never a play where they just miss the open guy. This of course is partially due to the absurd amount of time they seem to get combined with the fact that progressions aren't a thing in Madden so everyone is the primary read on every play
                            NFL:New England Patriots
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                            MLB:Boston Red Sox
                            NHL:Boston Bruins
                            NCAA:Boston College Eagles

                            Comment

                            • timhere1970
                              MVP
                              • Sep 2013
                              • 1810

                              #15
                              Re: Simulation Setting Gameplay Feedback

                              Originally posted by ggsimmonds
                              Sure you didn't run commit or audible? I've never heard of this happening
                              I am sure. I don't do many presnap adjustments besides line shifts. I never make an adjustments for defensive backs to blitz and all of them didn't anyway. I have never called run commit unless it's on the goalline. I have had corners several times do this. It's not exactly a blitz as they seem to try to run across the front of the line. It's like they totally bit o n play action despite there being no playaction.

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