Test: Dribble Penetration

[Kushmir]

While dribble penetration is a welcome addition to 2K18 and aids in how beautiful and free flowing the game is.....it has to be better balanced. Early H2H gameplay has shown that the balance aspect is lacking. This isn't calling out the devs...you never know about some issues with balance until millions of people get their hands on your game--many with the intention of breaking it. The issues with dribble penetration are as follows:

1) There's no emphasis on going AROUND or BY the defender by requiring the user point the stick off-center. Many guys are simply dribbling right into the defender and pressing turbo.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/89o5YZcRVTs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

2) Charges are non-existent. This is probably the biggest issue....dribblers have no conscience attacking when over-aggression isn't punished...and in this case its rewarded, often with shooting and blocking fouls.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dydmo8_gMiE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

3) There aren't enough loose balls. Turboing into defenders should result in turnovers almost as a rule. VOILA! another chance to show off the loose ball system.

4) The dribble interactions aren't held to a hardcore standard. This sticks out when so many other areas of gameplay are...look at how contested/physical the paint is. The shot-meter demands you have skill, the improved passing? The list goes on and on. When the dribbler is forced to turn his back it should serve as gameplay "warning" players that no progress is being made...continuing to hit turbo or make contact after that should result in Losing the ball and Offensive Fouls. Look at how long it takes for Derozan to lose the ball here (Covington's on-ball defense IQ is 89)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pKTHlWDtfmA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

5) The success rate is too high. There's almost no situation where the dribbler fails. They can collide with the defender until they get a favorable animation. After a few unsuccessful tries, Derozan simply walks Covington to the basket here:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DXHqJDGwUGE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

What should happen? Well in addition to losing the ball and turnovers, lets see more guys redirected off their intended path when they aren't successful, like happens here:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nkjo8jqNHWg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Lastly, I took Richaun Holmes my 76 rated backup center (speed with ball rating: 44) and simulated 20 instances where he drove the ball into a defense. I went right at the defender and pressed shoot when I was in position. He was stonewalled (forced to turn his back) on only three occasions. The others saw him drive easily on the defender and get into the lane...good position defense forced him to pull up twice and he was driven out of bounds two times. There are no fouls so we can only imagine how many times he would have gotten a whistle--but I can think we call can agree that success rate is HORRIBLE.

See for yourself:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qZ5o-ybfj3w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

NOTE: The end of the video got cut off--but trust me there were 20 of them.

[jeebs9]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

Totally agree. The flow is 20 times better. I don't feel like I'm in mud. Which was what stopped my from enjoying last year's game.

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[El_Poopador]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

Honestly I like where it is now. In most of the examples, it didn’t result in a score, but rather an ugly contested shot. I much prefer that to being stonewalled on 95% of drives.

Online I can see maybe tweaking it, but I hope they don’t touch it for play against the CPU. This is the first time in years where it’s actually fun and rewarding to get a mismatch on the perimeter.


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[Kushmir]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

Honestly I like where it is now. In most of the examples, it didn’t result in a score, but rather an ugly contested shot. I much prefer that to being stonewalled on 95% of drives.

Online I can see maybe tweaking it, but I hope they don’t touch it for play against the CPU. This is the first time in years where it’s actually fun and rewarding to get a mismatch on the perimeter.


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I'm more focused on him getting into the lane by turboing into the defender because Demarcus Cousins WON'T MISS those shots, and WILL DRAW those fouls, feel me? And believe me...I support you having fun with the game. I think mismatches are important too...but systems that lack a risk and reward will be broken/spammed by players.

[El_Poopador]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

I'm more focused on him getting into the lane by turboing into the defender because Demarcus Cousins WON'T MISS those shots, and WILL DRAW FOULS, feel me? And believe me...I support you having fun with the game. I think mismatches are important too...but systems that lack a risk and reward will be broken/spammed by players.

I definitely get where you’re coming from. I just don’t want them to ruin a great thing for offline play to balance online. I wonder what would happen if the defender tried to draw a charge in those situations.


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[jfsolo]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

It seems good offline right now, but yeah, they don't like to punish out of control User behavior online as severely as they should.

[iLLWiLL9105]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

It's fine. Most times in the NBA guys can drive past their man and get guys on their hip. The help defense is the most important part of defense and I'm glad 2k has finally started to transition into that. Guys just have to learn to play actual defense now instead of getting their hands held


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[Kushmir]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

I definitely get where you’re coming from. I just don’t want them to ruin a great thing for offline play to balance online. I wonder what would happen if the defender tried to draw a charge in those situations.


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Yeah I tried that in this clip--and promptly got walked to the basket. Rating obviously plays a HUGE role (Derozan is a 92, Redick a 79) but this is much of what you're seeing across the board. It was no different when I switched Covington on him, save 2 to 3 poke-away steals.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kqpy3mIntSw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[El_Poopador]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

Yeah I tried that in this clip--and promptly got walked to the basket. Rating obviously plays a HUGE role (Derozan is a 92, Redick a 79) but this is much of what you're seeing across the board. It was no different when I switched Covington on him, save 2-3 poke-away steals.



<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kqpy3mIntSw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I’d like to test it out a bit myself. That clip it looked like he got the first step, so the hip riding made sense.


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[alabamarob]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

1. Add more charges.

2. Allow more reachins to knock the ball loose on weak handlers.

3. Allow more lost dribble animations on weak handlers.

4. LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE ALONE

[Kushmir]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

1. Add more charges.

2. Allow more reachins to knock the ball loose on weak handlers.

3. Allow more lost dribble animations on weak handlers.

4. LEAVE EVERYTHING ELSE ALONE

This Basically. No one's saying change what makes it GREAT--because my God the game flows so well...add some tweaks that make Dribble Penetration risk/reward so guys aren't turboing into defenders and being rewarded for it.

[fakeassc]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

Please DO NOT change dribble penetration.

Dribble penetration was a BIG issue in 2k17 that I wanted changed. You kept on being cut off by the CPU unreasonably. When the CPU got even an arm in front of you, and you dribbled into the arm (not the CPU's set defensive stance and body), you got blocked off.

2k18 has absolutely fine dribble penetration.

There is NO need to change charges or reach-ins and ESPECIALLY no need to change the CPU's ability to cut you off.

IF you want changes, just tweak up lateral quickness for the CPU. I find it very fair, as the CPU cuts me off as much as I cut them off.

I disagree with this thread entirely.

EDIT: Take a look at all the 2k17 slider threads. Most (if not all) the major reputable slider makers turned down body-up sensitivity for the purpose of increasing (i.e. promoting) dribble penetration because it was difficult to do in 2k17.

Now that 2k18 has allowed us more dribble penetration, I am extremely thankful to 2k for that. Please do not change it when it has been an improvement on 2k17.

I don't want to go back to the situation in 2k17 when the body-up sensitivity slider had to be at 0 to make the game enjoyable. 2k18 is making steps in the right direction, in my opinion, in terms of gameplay.

[RyanFitzmagic]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

IF you want changes, just tweak up lateral quickness for the CPU. I find it very fair, as the CPU cuts me off as much as I cut them off.

I have the CPU's On-Ball Defense, Defensive Awareness, and Lateral Quickness all at 75 (playing on sliders customized from Hall of Fame preset), and I still dust the CPU's defender almost at will, even against elite perimeter stoppers like Kawhi and Roberson. Kawhi makes it a little tougher, but he's the only one I've noticed a difference against.

What did you set your Lateral Quickness to for the CPU?

[Thetruth9012]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

I'm more focused on him getting into the lane by turboing into the defender because Demarcus Cousins WON'T MISS those shots, and WILL DRAW those fouls, feel me? And believe me...I support you having fun with the game. I think mismatches are important too...but systems that lack a risk and reward will be broken/spammed by players.

Last year patches showed that this kind of changes need to be worked in next year titles , i dont think they ready for the changes you suggested so the patch probably would be so aid fix which we dont want.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Test: Dribble Penetration

First, I agree that this is the next logical step...not sure if it's possible this year.

but this is why its really important that 2k doesnt nerf the live ball....2k has done a good job of making users pay for dribbling into crowds this year...and it's a great way to combat this....

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