Defense should be HARD...but balanced.

**The 24th Letter** · 08-22-2019, 08:03 AM

Re: Defense should be HARD...but balanced (tutorial feedback)

Good post, I've been playing the defensive drills a lot and am pretty much in the same mindset of you on these points.

I want to see more actual ball pick ups as a result of cutting off the defender, not just stumbles.

I'm glad L2 isn't the 'glue' button this year, but we need to be rewarded for guessing right.

**Kushmir** · 08-22-2019, 08:19 AM

Re: Defense should be HARD...but balanced (tutorial feedback)

Originally posted by The 24th Letter

I want to see more actual ball pick ups as a result of cutting off the defender, not just stumbles.

Bingo. Let me crowd this guy and contain him if I don't elect to do something more aggressive like go for the strip or block.

Playing patty-cake like below just ain't gonna cut it [emoji23] We run the risk of the game being too offense-heavy when the best option we can provide the defense is wait-and-see:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rmdxANKTZb4" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

And true to form a poorly timed contest with R-stick would take you out of position just like any other bad decision:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/D4lgplYvux8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

**mfdoom911e** · 08-22-2019, 11:22 AM

Re: Defense should be HARD...but balanced (tutorial feedback)

Originally posted by Kushmir

The defensive tutorial is necessary and shows you how you wont take defense for granted in 2K20. Get in there and try it out...Siakam largely goes to work on an Elite defender (Draymond) like any defender you focus on making it hard for him, but he'll have some makes despite good D. FACT: I'll never stop politicking for a quick, easy, timing-based contest where we point the R-stick at the offensive player...its just better from a control standpoint.

I did "ok" in practice but mostly because like many I anticipated a time when spamming block and steal would be punished and so our strategy is based around staying in front of the defender and contesting:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/EA4zZOFzfcY" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

One issue? Too often timely contests cause your defender to stop instead of contextual animations relative to the dribbler that stop his progress/impede him. There's no reason for Green to stop below. He's defending Siakam--not that location on the court. See why contesting with R-stick AT the defender works better?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/3LY3eKsn4ds" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You know what would be nice tho? More offensive fouls/losing the ball from colliding with defenders. The game still has a nasty habit of moving me out of the way when the dribbler drives right at the defense:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PSwKzxnVmLQ" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/pxvQ3JCztj0" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Z3vsw97qRk8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I'm pretty sure I saw the Defensive Pickups in action...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/MX7zGg3D7iw" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RCzTb6n7ppc" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SpZ9KscwZ9E" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

But I didn't like how you forced a Defensive Pickup (a good defensive play) and then basically had to wait for the offensive player to shoot. LET US DO MORE. It would be nice if we had the option to crowd the dribbler and trigger the Hands Up Contain you see below after we force a pickup:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/aSEByASMmiI" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

P.S. But i'm not a fan of the defenders turning their back on the offensive player if you aren't holding Intense D. AT ALL. Historically Intense D is a pretty big stamina drain--unless this is fixed hopefully gameplay wont hammer us for trying to stay in good position. Since dribblers can largely go through every move in their arsenal without equivalent fatigue.

great post .I really wish that the 1st video fro #displaced defender will be called for charging or a fumble, as part of the first patch of this game. i hate when that happens it should result to something but not like that you slidding so that offense animation could continue.

Please somebody flood this to beluba.

**youALREADYknow** · 08-22-2019, 11:43 AM

Re: Defense should be HARD...but balanced.

“But i'm not a fan of the defenders turning their back on the offensive player if you aren't holding Intense D. AT ALL.”

Man, you, ball. Hopefully they can clean up the many instances where defenders default into these idle stances while ignoring the ball or their man. Make the defensive positioning more about angles and less reactive to their man, keep hands active in the passing lanes for “good” defenders, and add another layer of help defense logic around the rim/paint in all situations.

The biggest plus I’ve seen in the demo so far has been the AI’s tendency to give cushion to ball handlers instead of always crowding on drives like in 2K18/19. This is the first 2K that’s felt like modern basketball in the “no hand checking, no contact” era. There’s still a lot of bumping animations, but we can fix that with minor slider adjustments.

**MrWrestling3** · 08-22-2019, 11:47 AM

Re: Defense should be HARD...but balanced.

I completely agree...IMO all three of those Displaced Defender clips should be offensive fouls....just because the defender isn't standing there holding his junk or falling down like he got hit by a truck doesn't make it not Charging.Hopefully that is just a factor of the Demo difficulty being low.

When it comes to using Intense D,I saw there was a badge that basically lessens the stamina drain from it.

My only worry is balancing issues between offense and defense.Right now defense seems in a decent enough place from the "Risk vs Reward" perspective.....meanwhile I'm seeing these offensive badges that mitigate the shot meter...less penalty for bad layup timing,less penalty for slightly early/late,etc....kinda sounds like they are trying to eliminate the risk and increase the reward on that side of the ball;I'm not in favor of that.

**Kushmir** · 08-22-2019, 11:57 AM

Re: Defense should be HARD...but balanced (tutorial feedback)

Originally posted by mfdoom911e

i hate when that happens it should result to something but not like that you slidding so that offense animation could continue.

Oh for sure. We can never forget that the defensive player has a right to his position--he's not just there to make the offense look good lol.

I like this outcome alot better as the defender gets to stand his ground:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/smoKObcsJko" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

IMO pushing the shot stick towards the basket should always result in continuing to the rim (i.e floaters) while holding it away should stop our momentum and result in some kind of pull up. That gives us more control regarding being too aggressive and colliding with set defenders/potentially being called for offensive fouls.

Here I felt like I beat Siakam to the spot after he got free at first...let me know what you guys think:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/Eha8zxPDByU" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

**awg811** · 08-22-2019, 12:04 PM

Defense should be HARD...but balanced.

Originally posted by youALREADYknow

“But i'm not a fan of the defenders turning their back on the offensive player if you aren't holding Intense D. AT ALL.”

Man, you, ball. Hopefully they can clean up the many instances where defenders default into these idle stances while ignoring the ball or their man. Make the defensive positioning more about angles and less reactive to their man, keep hands active in the passing lanes for “good” defenders, and add another layer of help defense logic around the rim/paint in all situations.

The biggest plus I’ve seen in the demo so far has been the AI’s tendency to give cushion to ball handlers instead of always crowding on drives like in 2K18/19. This is the first 2K that’s felt like modern basketball in the “no hand checking, no contact” era. There’s still a lot of bumping animations, but we can fix that with minor slider adjustments.

Not all of us can.
You should try playing online with all these flaws.
Being moved out of position happens sometimes offline, but online it’s nearly every possession. Couple that with the cheesy online play and you have a game that’s getting harder and harder to enjoy and that’s just one issue.
2k should spend less time trying to add new things and more timing trying to prefect what they have. Because what they have could be great if they would do that.
I guess a great game isn’t as money making as new things even if they don’t quite work. 🤷*♂️

Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

**alabamarob** · 08-22-2019, 12:12 PM

Re: Defense should be HARD...but balanced.

1. Charges and ball tangibility. 2. Pick up dribble animations

Once you take away the bumping you need those things.

**Kushmir** · 08-22-2019, 12:15 PM

Defense should be HARD...but balanced.

Originally posted by youALREADYknow

The biggest plus I’ve seen in the demo so far has been the AI’s tendency to give cushion to ball handlers instead of always crowding on drives like in 2K18/19. This is the first 2K that’s felt like modern basketball in the “no hand checking, no contact” era. There’s still a lot of bumping animations, but we can fix that with minor slider adjustments.

Yeah I was super worried about that. We have to keep an eye on it tho...if there's this huge change to playing defense and the AI doesn't get the memo we'll literally have to fix our defensive depth every time we click on....and retreating defenders don't fare well. If elite users catch you backing up they're pulling....TRUST.

Originally posted by youALREADYknow

There’s still a lot of bumping animations, but we can fix that with minor slider adjustments.

This. I wasn't gonna be the guy to say it but good defense still feels like forcing contact with the offensive player. The “change” just feels like most guys just can no longer get away with it--the elite defenders players on the other hand..............

**MrWrestling3** · 08-22-2019, 12:34 PM

Re: Defense should be HARD...but balanced.

Originally posted by awg811

Not all of us can.
You should try playing online with all these flaws.
Being moved out of position happens sometimes offline, but online it’s nearly every possession. Couple that with the cheesy online play and you have a game that’s getting harder and harder to enjoy and that’s just one issue.
2k should spend less time trying to add new things and more timing trying to prefect what they have. Because what they have could be great if they would do that.
I guess a great game isn’t as money making as new things even if they don’t quite work. 🤷*♂️

Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

2K puts new content in the game....Half Of The General Fanbase: All this new stuff, and we still have things that have been broken forever.Can't we work on cleaning up all the issues?

2K fixing all sort of issues and makes everything run much better......Other Half Of The General Fanbase: It's just an update to last year's game...I hate it because there's nothing new.

Both sides have a point but unfortunately it's a no win situation for the developer, and it happens in pretty much every video gaming fandom.

**Kushmir** · 08-22-2019, 12:49 PM

Re: Defense should be HARD...but balanced.

Originally posted by MrWrestling3

meanwhile I'm seeing these offensive badges that mitigate the shot meter...less penalty for bad layup timing,less penalty for slightly early/late,etc....kinda sounds like they are trying to eliminate the risk and increase the reward on that side of the ball;I'm not in favor of that.

Yeah...not a fan. Its why i'm not into MyPlayer. I just can't wrap my head around implementing good mechanics and then adding badges to minimize the effects of said mechanics--like, what?

Also: The CPU never goes baseline from the corner--it drives middle. EVERY TIME. PNO guys know this will be completely reversed in H2H (help is middle/the reverse layup animation) we need to keep an eye on how this interaction will play out with the new defensive paradigm.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sVCy2_vxL5s" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Reminder how EASY it is to lose Baseline Contain:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/xi-S9OOK5co" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

**Kushmir** · 08-22-2019, 12:58 PM

Re: Defense should be HARD...but balanced.

Originally posted by awg811

2k should spend less time trying to add new things and more timing trying to prefect what they have. Because what they have could be great if they would do that.

We definitely hear you man. The only issue is fixing legacy issues isn't a button, y'know? Czar let us know early on that engineers gotta get in there and figure out what the problem is and then resolve it....and there's no guarantee the fix works--or that they determine the problem.

Its the reason we see solutions with not many moving parts (i.e. block and pump fake spam this year) Otherwise they have to create entire systems for things they want to change and that one small system make take all cycle.

**MrWrestling3** · 08-22-2019, 01:37 PM

Re: Defense should be HARD...but balanced.

Originally posted by Kushmir

Also: The CPU never goes baseline from the corner--it drives middle. EVERY TIME. PNO guys know this will be completely reversed in H2H (help is middle/the reverse layup animation) we need to keep an eye on how this interaction will play out with the new defensive paradigm.

Something interesting we noticed is that not everyone has a baseline reverse layup or dunk anymore. Seems like players that don't do finesse shots much IRL can't do them in the game either.

**Kushmir** · 08-22-2019, 02:24 PM

Re: Defense should be HARD...but balanced.

Originally posted by MrWrestling3

Something interesting we noticed is that not everyone has a baseline reverse layup or dunk anymore. Seems like players that don't do finesse shots much IRL can't do them in the game either.

I hear you. We definitely need to keep an eye on it...what happens when I beat guys to the baseline or take it away completely?

OAN: When the Drive to Key interacts like this? Its an offensive foul. PERIOD.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dsJiGWiPCNA" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The emphasis has to be on going around the defender...The blatant pushing people out of the way can't be a thing.

Defense should be HARD...but balanced.

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