PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

[Kushmir]

#1-ANY and ALL of my suggestions are specifically and only related to Play Now Online.

IMO one of the biggest advances the next gen hardware can make is moving away from a paradigm where offensive animations displace defenders to allow drives to the basket. Implementing accurate physics are probably the hardest part of game design, but it would improve the game by leaps and bounds.

Elite offensive players regularly do THIS [emoji1541] while defensive players slide backwards:

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The failed Drive to Key that doesnt go around the defender is more blatant contact that should have a 50% Charge Outcome:

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Are collisions part of basketball? SURE. But they simply MUST HAVE more negative outcomes. 2K17 had a great balance where turboing into defenders ran the risk of Charges. Offensive players have to run the risk of Offensive Fouls (and defenders should get in position to draw them) Dribble Pickups and Losing the ball when they drive straight into defenders. We should also see defenders hold their ground rather than sliding back like we see currently:

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More of this, please:

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In addition, defending must be more user-friendly. I've advocated for years for a balanced contest that triggers when you point the right stick as the offensive player shoots. This would improve gameplay and do away with the head-scratching instances where our defenders stop their momentum on contests.

We should see contextual contests when we have good timing on defense--our players are defending the shot attempt, not a spot on the floor like below:

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Balance would also reward savvy offensive players. I get faked out of my shoes here--and I should. Bad timing on contests should have the defender contest in that direction--and cause you to lose defensive position:

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Here's another Up/Under that fooled me that should probably result in a foul 90% of the time even tho i'm contesting:

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Hands Up should affect shot % the least but it should be a great defensive counter for moves like the Up/Under:

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In the end, eliminating Single Outcomes and lessening the effectiveness of simply triggering animations can only make the game better.

[wrestlinggod1]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

This has been an issue in 2K for years. I'm really hoping that it's something that will be improved with the new tech coming in the next gen consoles.

[Vroman]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

It got significantly worse with hof badges and takeovers. Just remove those keeping game the same and it'd get so much better.

[Kushmir]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

Two more instances where the offensive player is simply turboing into the defender confident that an animation will bail them out:

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Richardson strips Westbrook in the 1st clip--and we definitely need more outcomes than simply bailout fouls, especially with good defenders. Charges need to make their return and colliding with defenders needs to result in more dribble pickup and loose ball outcomes. We should also need the ability to Crowd guys in situations where their momentum is stopped, they're static or their pump-fakes have failed like below:

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Russ draws a foul in the second clip, which isn't a bad outcome as he's elite going to the rim...I just don't like Thybulle sliding backwards into a foul. The eurostep's effectiveness should be based on situation. The user should be forced to "euro" to the right (Thybulle has cut off the baseline) if not? Charges, Loose Balls and Dribble Pickup outcomes....successful drives to the rim should be rare.

[KingAli18]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

Problem is they're already mo capping animations for 2k21. They're lazy bruh its embarrassing at this point.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

I'm fine for the most part with the displacing aspect, but the contesting a spot rather than the shot definitely annoys the hell out of me and I agree that the 2K17 system where you could draw charges just by being in the right spot and getting run over was good. Ultimately I'm afraid it was removed for a reason.

I'd definitely love to get to a more physics-based system as well, though most of the animations don't annoy me the way they do a lot of other people.

[m29a]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

2K17 wasn't really that balanced in terms of on-ball defense. Like 2K19, it allowed the average and poor defenders to play well beyond their capabilities and continuously bump on the perimeter with ease. If the goal is for realism, then I don't know how that is considered more ideal than what 2K20 offers. 2K20 is far from perfect, but it does strike somewhat of a balance. It just doesn't let you get up close as a defender anymore, you have to pick your poison and giving up space really can help in terms of preventing drives.

Blow-bys are in the game and always will be in the game because they exist in the real games and can occur frequently. I think the bigger thing is inside shot success and whether that is too easy. Anyways, good defenders should matter and they should be able to stand their ground, but ratings and match-ups have to matter, otherwise what is the point in terms of differentiating players?

I suppose in terms of purely online play and balancing around that, then beefing up the defense across the board makes some sense. I feel like the game has struggled trying to be a mix of the two and catering to both online and offline audiences (and I know the online side is a lot bigger, I get it).

[Kushmir]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

I agree that the 2K17 system where you could draw charges just by being in the right spot and getting run over was good. Ultimately I'm afraid it was removed for a reason.

I thought this as well...and I was willing to trade charges/bumping for a more free-flowing game at first, but after 3 yrs of watching guys turbo with little downside i'm ready for something new. I'm hopeful we can get a game that's free flowing AND where turbo has a bigger downside.

2K17 punished you for blatantly colliding with defenders, and it was a good thing:

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Moreover, there was a Redirect mechanic in 2K18 that simply wasn't used enough. It allowed freedom of movement but the defender stayed between the offensive player and the basket/prevented a straight drive to the rim.

I've got my fingers crossed that we'll see it used much more often in future versions of 2K when there isn't a mismatch on the perimeter:

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2K17 also did blocking fouls really well. I'd love to see those return.

[Kushmir]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

2K17 wasn't really that balanced in terms of on-ball defense. Like 2K19, it allowed the average and poor defenders to play well beyond their capabilities and continuously bump on the perimeter with ease. If the goal is for realism, then I don't know how that is considered more ideal than what 2K20 offers. 2K20 is far from perfect, but it does strike somewhat of a balance. It just doesn't let you get up close as a defender anymore, you have to pick your poison and giving up space really can help in terms of preventing drives.

Blow-bys are in the game and always will be in the game because they exist in the real games and can occur frequently.

Every single word of this is true. I def dont mean to present 2K17 as this perfect game...even 2K18 was better than 2K17 with all of its warts--2K actually does a good job giving us more basketball every year...the bigger issue is tuning (see shooting this year) but for sure, blow-bys are essential. My #1 point is that the interactions can improve by leaps and bounds.

The Good: Happened yesterday, Horford stands his ground and doesn't slide back. We need to see defenders cut off drives to the rim more often for charges. Here he forces a bad shot by Lebron:

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Good/Bad: Good rotation by Embiid and he steps up to defend Lebron--(who's sprinting) and the collision forces a turnover. But the Simmons interaction afterwards has to be better. AD steps up similar to Embiid--he shouldn't slide back allowing Ben to finish his animation. Either punish Ben for the collision (Charge, Loose Ball) or call a blocking foul on Davis:

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[MrWrestling3]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

One of the problems I see is that the game often tends to ignore comparative weights and strength attributes of players,couple with the lack of charges this lets ball handlers turbo into defenders and slide them around without consequences.This is made worse by certain badges which effectively allow certain players to bully any defender that doesn't have just the right combination of perimeter and post defense badges.

There needs to be far more of the redirection animation you showed (which is how modern NBA defenses work, redirect the drive into help defense), and far less of the backwards stumbling.

[Kushmir]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

One of the problems I see is that the game often tends to ignore comparative weights and strength attributes of players,couple with the lack of charges this lets ball handlers turbo into defenders and slide them around without consequences.This is made worse by certain badges which effectively allow certain players to bully any defender that doesn't have just the right combination of perimeter and post defense badges.

There needs to be far more of the redirection animation you showed (which is how modern NBA defenses work, redirect the drive into help defense), and far less of the backwards stumbling.

Yeah i'll never understand how 2K18 didn't use Redirection given the state of the "hip riding animation" the tools to balancing that game were literally right there in gameplay.

Regarding weights/strength/size/momentum here's a video Vroman posted yesterday. Anunoby is a really good defender and Durant never slows after their collision--which ends in a dunk. [emoji58] that animation should be the rarest in the game. We should be shocked when we see it.

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[MrWrestling3]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

Yeah i'll never understand how 2K18 didn't use Redirection given the state of the "hip riding animation" the tools to balancing that game were literally right there in gameplay.

Regarding weights/strength/size/momentum here's a video Vroman posted yesterday. Anunoby is a really good defender and Durant never slows after their collision--which ends in a dunk. [emoji58] that animation should be the rarest in the game. We should be shocked when we see it.

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Exactly...one of the standard defensive techniques in the modern NBA is to ride the ball handler either into help defense or to a bad spot on the floor.Similar to how Pippen used to play defense, minus the hand check.

Moving on to that clip....a look at the 2K rosters tells me that Durant and Anunoby are very similar in terms of weight and strength.Anunoby had decent position there to at least force Durant to take a jumper or risk going out of bounds....but because Durant has 2 of everyone's favorite badges on Gold (Contact Finisher and Slithery Finisher) while Anunoby only has a few Bronze badges, he can go up into the defender with no operating space and we get Dr J dunking on Bill Walton instead.This sort of "rewarding badges over gameplay" approach to resolving animations needs to go away.

[Kushmir]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

because Durant has 2 of everyone's favorite badges on Gold (Contact Finisher and Slithery Finisher) while Anunoby only has a few Bronze badges, he can go up into the defender with no operating space and we get Dr J dunking on Bill Walton instead.This sort of "rewarding badges over gameplay" approach to resolving animations needs to go away.

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

I knew that dunk looked familiar but yuuuup, thats where its from.

Keep in mind Anunoby is 6'7" and has one of the league's best physiques (with legs like tree trunks) and is a very, very good defender. Let's be clear KD can score in a myriad of ways--but lowering his head and barreling into people a la Lebron isn't one of them.

He isn't built like that. LITERALLY.

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Those are highlights from KD's last full season. His game isn't built on physicality at all. He's a 7-foot scorer and we've never seen anything like him, but his game is based on going around people/getting to a spot and rising up because he isn't worried about getting his shot blocked. He doesn't power people to the rim.

[MrWrestling3]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

Those are highlights from KD's last full season. His game isn't built on physicality at all. He's a 7-foot scorer and we've never seen anything like him, but his game is based around going around people/getting to a spot and rising up because he isn't worried about getting his shot blocked. He doesn't power people to the rim.

Exactly.KD is kind of like a taller Kyrie that can dunk a bit ;he relies on being faster than defenders or avoiding them.At 2:50 in that video you can even see almost the same situation as the 2K clip with KD going against Tobias Harris, KD gets sealed out and has to go to the jumper (which he makes).

[Kushmir]

Re: PS5: Stop Displacing Defenders

This is a much better interaction and it exposes a player like Ben Simmons (too good driving on 2K) since he's really limited if he's not finishing at the basket:

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If the offensive player goes by the defender that's one thing--but driving INTO a guy and yielding good results should be rare. Beating the initial defender is only job #1 in the NBA...even average defensive teams have defensive rotations that will step up/prevent a straight drive to the rim.

And most of those rotations aren't by shot-blockers, here's footage of nothing but Ilyasova closing down driving lanes:

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