What is SIM?

[T4VERTS]

It's kind of a loaded question honestly. I see the term used often but if I ask 10 people I could very well get 10 different answers, especially as it pertains to "SIM" leagues. I kind of wanted to set out to examine this a bit more so I created a survey that I'd love to gather feedback from you guys on if you play in a "SIM" franchise and have a moment.

It's not the greatest survey, or the most scientific, but there is a method to the madness. Some things are intentionally left vague because the term gets used so vaguely at times. I apologize in advance for typos.

https://t.co/FcUBG8BauI?amp=1
(Note Email is only required to limit multiple responses from same people and aren't being collected)

I appreciate your guys time in responding!

[Devaster]

Re: What is SIM?

Good luck to you. I think you will find varied answers from nearly every person that responds. That is or was the beauty of franchise mode. Every one can play it differently and have a completely unique experience.

[canes21]

Re: What is SIM?

I haven't finished the survey, I will, but pretty much the entire 2nd page feels like it just a bunch of house rules that are intended to keep the game balanced for the purposes of giving the illusion of sim play. I don't consider rules that limit play calling or anything like that are sim, they are simply band aids to try and fix unbalanced and unauthentic gameplay.

Sim, for me personally, is the AI being smart enough to not let the user run the same play 10 times straight for a TD. It is the X's and O's being implemented in a way that proper football knowledge and strategy is key, not finding a meta play. If the AI was competent and a user ran the same play 3 or 4 times straight for a gain each time simply because the execution of the play was so well done on a realistic level, then I believe that remains to be sim. Real life coaches, college and NFL, will call the same exact plays multiple times in a row if they spot something they can exploit.

A rule that limits play calling is just that, a rule, it isn't sim or non-sim, it's an aid for a game that is imbalanced and a a buff for an AI that can't stand on its own. Similarly, limiting the user's ability to go for it on 4th, or to run up the score is not sim either, the game needs to have proper systems in place that make real life football risks translate into risky moves on the virtual field as well. Going for in on 4th and 3 on your own 33 is risky in real life because of obvious reasons. In Madden it isn't as dangerous because of how the game is structured and how it plays out.

Again, personally speaking, when I think of sim gameplay, I really think of authentic gameplay. When I say Madden isn't sim enough, I mean it isn't authentic enough. Seeing a QB in past Madden games scrambling around and throwing darts off of their backfoot across field 50 yards downfield is not sim to me because it isn't authentic. I am fine playing a kid online that tries to scramble every dropback and throw on the run consistently if the game is authentic and he suffers from the silly decision. That is sim to me because it is authentic and he is being punished in the proper ways and he is (hopefully) learning why real life QB's don't play that way.

[roadman]

Re: What is SIM?

Good luck to you. I think you will find varied answers from nearly every person that responds. That is or was the beauty of franchise mode. Every one can play it differently and have a completely unique experience.

I can do that with the current offering, but I will preface it that I know a majority here want a deeper immersed mode.

I am currently playing a fantasy franchise and having a ball with it.

Sim is similar to opening a window close to a NFL stadium and watching from the exterior.

I kid, I kid, but sim is replicating NFL football.

For me, personally, I enjoy seeing the stats close to NFL football.

[T4VERTS]

Re: What is SIM?

I haven't finished the survey, I will, but pretty much the entire 2nd page feels like it just a bunch of house rules that are intended to keep the game balanced for the purposes of giving the illusion of sim play. I don't consider rules that limit play calling or anything like that are sim, they are simply band aids to try and fix unbalanced and unauthentic gameplay.

Sim, for me personally, is the AI being smart enough to not let the user run the same play 10 times straight for a TD. It is the X's and O's being implemented in a way that proper football knowledge and strategy is key, not finding a meta play. If the AI was competent and a user ran the same play 3 or 4 times straight for a gain each time simply because the execution of the play was so well done on a realistic level, then I believe that remains to be sim. Real life coaches, college and NFL, will call the same exact plays multiple times in a row if they spot something they can exploit.

A rule that limits play calling is just that, a rule, it isn't sim or non-sim, it's an aid for a game that is imbalanced and a a buff for an AI that can't stand on its own. Similarly, limiting the user's ability to go for it on 4th, or to run up the score is not sim either, the game needs to have proper systems in place that make real life football risks translate into risky moves on the virtual field as well. Going for in on 4th and 3 on your own 33 is risky in real life because of obvious reasons. In Madden it isn't as dangerous because of how the game is structured and how it plays out.

Again, personally speaking, when I think of sim gameplay, I really think of authentic gameplay. When I say Madden isn't sim enough, I mean it isn't authentic enough. Seeing a QB in past Madden games scrambling around and throwing darts off of their backfoot across field 50 yards downfield is not sim to me because it isn't authentic. I am fine playing a kid online that tries to scramble every dropback and throw on the run consistently if the game is authentic and he suffers from the silly decision. That is sim to me because it is authentic and he is being punished in the proper ways and he is (hopefully) learning why real life QB's don't play that way.

I’d agree if the community hadn’t spent years staking flags in rules proclaiming them “SIM”, or not SIM. That’s kind of the point, the community has used SIM to define rules, and then use their own definitions to judge other rules. If you ever look to join a league they will say things like “sim gameplay only”, like its some sort of universally understood way of playing. I’m looking to see if there is any set of rules that are universally considered “SIM”.

[canes21]

Re: What is SIM?

I’d agree if the community hadn’t spent years staking flags in rules proclaiming them “SIM”, or not SIM. That’s kind of the point, the community has used SIM to define rules, and then use their own definitions to judge other rules. If you ever look to join a league they will say things like “sim gameplay only”, like its some sort of universally understood way of playing. I’m looking to see if there is any set of rules that are universally considered “SIM”.

I agree with you and see exactly where you are coming from. I ended up answering Not Sim to every question and I think my post explains why I answered the way I did. When I say sim, I think of authenticity more than I think of limiting the user from exploiting the game mechanics. A sim game to me has authentic mechanics that guide the player towards replicating real life strategies and decisions because doing anything abnormal would be punished like it is in real life.

[Devaster]

Re: What is SIM?

I personally think limiting the game to just replicate real-life football isn't what "sim" should be. It should be an experience where users can replicate real football or manipulate it into something else. The user is free to do whatever they want. Of course, that assumes that Madden can even replicate real football, which it often fails to do just that. AI behavior on and off the field and the lack of true stat-tracking limit my experience.



Imposing rules on others is just that. They are opinions and nothing more. But there is no right or wrong way to play franchise mode.

[jfsolo]

Re: What is SIM?

I read all the questions but didn't answer them since I don't play in any Sim leagues. My take is pretty much exactly the same as canes.

Ideally Sim is a playstyle that a User chooses to employ because it optimizes their chance to have success and win games because it mirrors philosophically and in terms of execution that which we see from NFL coaches and players. The game of course needs to require this of them.

That anyone can have sustained or even any success in Madden on Sim mode by playing in a different style than that is 100% the games fault IMO. That people have to come to a gentleman's agreement to artificially limit certain behaviors in terms of gameplay and team management is also 100% a failure of the game.

I understand of course that selling more and more copies and gaining more and more revenue is the sole goal of the publisher and the high level executives, so I understand why the developers literally aren't allowed to make that type of game where illogical and non deceptive play results in the User looking incompetent in every game.

Barring a set of robust sliders and tuners that H2H leagues could modify and employ to make erratic and repetitive play a failing proposition by default I don't know what else they're going to able to do besides making rules, because by design the ease of User success removes the chance for non sim play to be self correcting.

[JayhawkerStL]

Re: What is SIM?

I’d agree if the community hadn’t spent years staking flags in rules proclaiming them “SIM”, or not SIM. That’s kind of the point, the community has used SIM to define rules, and then use their own definitions to judge other rules. If you ever look to join a league they will say things like “sim gameplay only”, like its some sort of universally understood way of playing. I’m looking to see if there is any set of rules that are universally considered “SIM”.

I answered nearly every question “Not sim.” Honestly, it’s a pretty good list of why sim sports is so dead right now. It’s a list of grievances, of what sim sports
games do poorly.

They are exactly why I call current sim sports play paint-by-numbrts and boring as hell. You take a QB with a 98.6 rating. You then tweak and add House Rules so he gets as close to that as possible. Build a team that should take the division, then tweak the sliders and ratings so they do.

There is nothing wrong with that, as it can be as fun and interesting as building model airplanes, and you learn a lot about how stats interact and such.

The problem is, it sucks the soul out of what sports are. Competition. And current video games are much better at making competition fun than making simulation fun. And that’s why publishers are doing what they are doing.

[jmurphy31]

Re: What is SIM?

I haven't finished the survey, I will, but pretty much the entire 2nd page feels like it just a bunch of house rules that are intended to keep the game balanced for the purposes of giving the illusion of sim play. I don't consider rules that limit play calling or anything like that are sim, they are simply band aids to try and fix unbalanced and unauthentic gameplay.

Sim, for me personally, is the AI being smart enough to not let the user run the same play 10 times straight for a TD. It is the X's and O's being implemented in a way that proper football knowledge and strategy is key, not finding a meta play. If the AI was competent and a user ran the same play 3 or 4 times straight for a gain each time simply because the execution of the play was so well done on a realistic level, then I believe that remains to be sim. Real life coaches, college and NFL, will call the same exact plays multiple times in a row if they spot something they can exploit.

A rule that limits play calling is just that, a rule, it isn't sim or non-sim, it's an aid for a game that is imbalanced and a a buff for an AI that can't stand on its own. Similarly, limiting the user's ability to go for it on 4th, or to run up the score is not sim either, the game needs to have proper systems in place that make real life football risks translate into risky moves on the virtual field as well. Going for in on 4th and 3 on your own 33 is risky in real life because of obvious reasons. In Madden it isn't as dangerous because of how the game is structured and how it plays out.

Again, personally speaking, when I think of sim gameplay, I really think of authentic gameplay. When I say Madden isn't sim enough, I mean it isn't authentic enough. Seeing a QB in past Madden games scrambling around and throwing darts off of their backfoot across field 50 yards downfield is not sim to me because it isn't authentic. I am fine playing a kid online that tries to scramble every dropback and throw on the run consistently if the game is authentic and he suffers from the silly decision. That is sim to me because it is authentic and he is being punished in the proper ways and he is (hopefully) learning why real life QB's don't play that way.

I am with Canes on this one. I think Sim is a game that replicates what you see on TV and on the field. I play vs the CPU only and when I think of Sim it is less about me than the CPU. I thknk the CPU should be to adapt if I run the same play over and over again (Heck they have an advantage knowing what play I pick...just go to the one yard line, same formation you pick a run they go goal line, you pick a pass (same formation) and they go coverage defense).

Back to my thoughts on sim. If I play the Ravens I want to see Lamar Jackson scrambling and making plays, I want them to run more than they pass. I want passing teams to pass more. I want to see teams establish their stars or take advantage of my weaknesses. I want a CPU that can actually call a difficult game to prepare for. and even use clock managament correctly. To me that is sim..

[Hshaw810]

Re: What is SIM?

I answered nearly every question “Not sim.” Honestly, it’s a pretty good list of why sim sports is so dead right now. It’s a list of grievances, of what sim sports
games do poorly.

They are exactly why I call current sim sports play paint-by-numbrts and boring as hell. You take a QB with a 98.6 rating. You then tweak and add House Rules so he gets as close to that as possible. Build a team that should take the division, then tweak the sliders and ratings so they do.

There is nothing wrong with that, as it can be as fun and interesting as building model airplanes, and you learn a lot about how stats interact and such.

The problem is, it sucks the soul out of what sports are. Competition. And current video games are much better at making competition fun than making simulation fun. And that’s why publishers are doing what they are doing.

Sim sports isnt dead. Sim football is because of madden

[HeadCoach11787]

Re: What is SIM?

Sim is playing realistic football. Examples are punting on fourth and long like a real team always does. Kneeling when the game is over based on clock and timeouts, not subbing in tyrek hill at RB etc.

Wish madden would bring back FairPlay settings like they used to have during PS2 online days

[goillini03]

Re: What is SIM?

Sim is playing realistic football. Examples are punting on fourth and long like a real team always does. Kneeling when the game is over based on clock and timeouts, not subbing in tyrek hill at RB etc.

Wish madden would bring back FairPlay settings like they used to have during PS2 online days

I would add not running the same play over and over. Not taking advantage of broken animations. Not using players out of position. Not changing every route on passing plays a majority of the time. Allowing Fumbles.

[PeoplesChampGB]

Re: What is SIM?

Hmm. What is sim?

I would describe it this way as a starter and you can expand on this when you can get this right (Madden can't).

If you are playing chess, those pieces can only move certain ways. They can't motion shift and warp over the board to achieve a desired outcome. It takes strategy to win chess, as you have to move your pieces in certain positions to get certain results.

The same should be in video game football. If I keep moving the same pieces over and over, my opponent catches on and counters it. Before you know it, those pieces are taken from me. If I run the same thing over and over and over again, the computer should adjust to it and try to take it away from me.

Players on the field shouldn't warp and bend the laws of physics to get a desired result.

Fix the gameplay on the field, and then we can expand from there. That is the foundation. And if the foundation isn't solid, it doesn't matter what you add into it.

[mburke2]

Re: What is SIM?

I haven't finished the survey, I will, but pretty much the entire 2nd page feels like it just a bunch of house rules that are intended to keep the game balanced for the purposes of giving the illusion of sim play. I don't consider rules that limit play calling or anything like that are sim, they are simply band aids to try and fix unbalanced and unauthentic gameplay.

Sim, for me personally, is the AI being smart enough to not let the user run the same play 10 times straight for a TD. It is the X's and O's being implemented in a way that proper football knowledge and strategy is key, not finding a meta play. If the AI was competent and a user ran the same play 3 or 4 times straight for a gain each time simply because the execution of the play was so well done on a realistic level, then I believe that remains to be sim. Real life coaches, college and NFL, will call the same exact plays multiple times in a row if they spot something they can exploit.

A rule that limits play calling is just that, a rule, it isn't sim or non-sim, it's an aid for a game that is imbalanced and a a buff for an AI that can't stand on its own. Similarly, limiting the user's ability to go for it on 4th, or to run up the score is not sim either, the game needs to have proper systems in place that make real life football risks translate into risky moves on the virtual field as well. Going for in on 4th and 3 on your own 33 is risky in real life because of obvious reasons. In Madden it isn't as dangerous because of how the game is structured and how it plays out.

Again, personally speaking, when I think of sim gameplay, I really think of authentic gameplay. When I say Madden isn't sim enough, I mean it isn't authentic enough. Seeing a QB in past Madden games scrambling around and throwing darts off of their backfoot across field 50 yards downfield is not sim to me because it isn't authentic. I am fine playing a kid online that tries to scramble every dropback and throw on the run consistently if the game is authentic and he suffers from the silly decision. That is sim to me because it is authentic and he is being punished in the proper ways and he is (hopefully) learning why real life QB's don't play that way.

Totally agree with Canes here which is why I answered NOT SIM for all of the gameplay related rules/restrictions questions. Having "house rules" (offline or in online franchise competitions) is not sim simply because those restrictions don't exist in the actual NFL. Goodell isn't fining teams or coaches for running the same concept 12 straight plays. The punishment is the defense catches onto it and makes the team pay.

The reason these "house rules" even exist for many people in Madden is because of the flaws in the game's logic and AI that don't punish the user for playing unrealistically. IMO, it's not a particular user's play style that you should consider "not sim," it's the game's reaction to that player's on field decisions and the AI's ability (or in this case, inability) to adjust to produce a realistic outcome.