Slowing the pace suggestions

[Irish0331]

Any suggestions on how to sorta slow the pace of fights down a little. When i engage in the clinch up against the cage there doesnt seem like theres any way to stall a bit and work in some shots. The AI seems to spin out of it very quickly and I'm unsure how to hold them in place and spend more than just 2 seconds pressing them up against the cage. Same goes with clinching away from the fence. When I get pulled into a clinch it feels kinda chaotic and rushed. I'll try to punch my way out or back away to get out but i feel like the AI is latched on for a few seonds. On the other hand, if i engage the clinch it seems like they rip right out of it most times before i can even get off more than one shot.

I'd like a little realism and not have every clinch exchange with the AI to end up like Takayama-Frye. Any suggestions? I must be doing something wrong. Am I missing how to block an escape against the cage or how to keep the AI in my clinch a little longer than a nano second?

Oh...is there a way to block the clinch transition where I end up bent over and taking knees to the skull with no course of action other than backing away or blocking? Are thos emy only 2 choices? Thanks!!

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

You're not meant to do that. It's a deliberate choice on the developers' part. UFC 3 allows you to slow things down, however, especially against the cage. You can do it in the open too, but cage clinching is where slowing the pace down works best in that game.

[Irish0331]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

You're not meant to do that. It's a deliberate choice on the developers' part. UFC 3 allows you to slow things down, however, especially against the cage. You can do it in the open too, but cage clinching is where slowing the pace down works best in that game.

That sucks. Pressing an opponent up against the cage and pummelling and hand fighting happens ALL THE TIME. Appreciate the info, thanks.

[Haz____]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

Another way to cater to high pressure fighters.

In UFC 3 I could use the clinch to defend against, and to slow down high pressure guys, in UFC 4 the clinch is a tool FOR the high pressure guys.

It's backwards.

[johnmangala]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

Another way to cater to high pressure fighters.

In UFC 3 I could use the clinch to defend against, and to slow down high pressure guys, in UFC 4 the clinch is a tool FOR the high pressure guys.

It's backwards.

Yeah this is a disappointing part of clinch now.

The best way I found to counter clinch is move into them when they throw strikes and then when it's a stalemate transition into single under or go for rocks.

Apparently double unders was removed because it was largely a control position.

[Skynet]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

This was not done to give preassure fighters any advantage, nor were any positions intentionally removed for any reason.

We rebuilt clinch from the ground up with a new engine, which necessitated entirely new animations and content, and we didn't have the resources to add all the positions we had before. The goal of the new system was to make clinch more dynamic and smooth, as it honestly is in real fights.

Yes, against the cage fighters often grind and hold their opponents longer than you can in ours, but when two fighters are hugging it out, so to speak, that's a mutual effort. That can happen in our game just fine, but it takes two. If you have someone clinched irl and they're backing up and actively trying to get out, they will. It's very hard to actually hold someone there against their will, without a cage behind them.

But ya know.... we never do anything for 'real' MMA fans.... Don't discount how much the behavior of real fighters impacts the appearance of a 'real' fight compared to people playing a video game.

[johnmangala]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

This was not done to give preassure fighters any advantage, nor were any positions intentionally removed for any reason.

We rebuilt clinch from the ground up with a new engine, which necessitated entirely new animations and content, and we didn't have the resources to add all the positions we had before. The goal of the new system was to make clinch more dynamic and smooth, as it honestly is in real fights.

Yes, against the cage fighters often grind and hold their opponents longer than you can in ours, but when two fighters are hugging it out, so to speak, that's a mutual effort. That can happen in our game just fine, but it takes two. If you have someone clinched irl and they're backing up and actively trying to get out, they will. It's very hard to actually hold someone there against their will, without a cage behind them.

That’s definitely true in the middle of the cage like you said. Against the cage is not too different to holding someone on the ground tho but you can still do that. I think a control position like double unders is preferable to making the single under position last longer due to damage.

Adding back single collar/thai against the cage would be useful. It would be better visually too since the fighter would naturally stay in position rather than transitioning into single under every time.

[TheRizzzle]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

This was not done to give preassure fighters any advantage, nor were any positions intentionally removed for any reason.



We rebuilt clinch from the ground up with a new engine, which necessitated entirely new animations and content, and we didn't have the resources to add all the positions we had before. The goal of the new system was to make clinch more dynamic and smooth, as it honestly is in real fights.



Yes, against the cage fighters often grind and hold their opponents longer than you can in ours, but when two fighters are hugging it out, so to speak, that's a mutual effort. That can happen in our game just fine, but it takes two. If you have someone clinched irl and they're backing up and actively trying to get out, they will. It's very hard to actually hold someone there against their will, without a cage behind them.



But ya know.... we never do anything for 'real' MMA fans.... Don't discount how much the behavior of real fighters impacts the appearance of a 'real' fight compared to people playing a video game.

Would you agree that if given the time to add double unders against the cage, if it were added it would make sense for it to be harder to get off the cage in this game?

Of course fighters don't just chill out on the cage and let people hold them there. Except sometimes they do. Because they have to conserve stamina, etc...

They do by choice to preserve their chances later in the fight. Give up a round so they can maybe go for the knockout early in the next round.

A good example is that Usman-Masvidal fight. Stipe-Cormeir 3 also. You have to do the early work (footwork to stay inside the black lines) or if a good clincher gets double unders on you against the cage you're going to have to sacrifice something to get out (stamina or position).

Without this being in the game, it is by default easier to get off the cage than it would be IRL for certain types of fighters.

Imagine a world where it was illegal to perform double unders in MMA IRL. That could have dramatically altered the outcome of Stipe-Cormier 3.

These are the types of long term choices some players would like to make in the game. Right now the game forces you to think moment-to-moment without giving you a ton of tools to methodically work your way through a five round fight and force your opponent to fight your fight (IMO).

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[Reinfarcements]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

Yes, against the cage fighters often grind and hold their opponents longer than you can in ours, but when two fighters are hugging it out, so to speak, that's a mutual effort. That can happen in our game just fine, but it takes two. Don't discount how much the behavior of real fighters impacts the appearance of a 'real' fight compared to people playing a video game.

I think the issue currently in this area is that in the game, there is no real reason to not immediately attempt to escape when you are against the cage.

As I'm sure you are aware, in real life there are a number of reasons the escape attempt is not always immediately fired off. I can see two major reasons being translated into the game fairly effectively to try and close that gap between video game behavior and real life fight behavior as much as possible (though obviously that gap can never truly be closed).

First is stamina. I feel like many fighters do not want to spend a ton of energy trying to muscle out of the clinch as fast as possible, instead wait for a more opportune time. I'm not sure if there is some sort of grapple advantage currently for the clinch or not, but either way I believe a system similar to GA should be in place but instead of determining whether or not you transition (or escape the clinch) it instead determines how much stamina you use escaping the clinch. You could gain positive clinch GA by striking your opponent, having more short term stamina than your opponent, and timing your escape for when the opponent just starts to throw a strike.

Speaking of the opponent throwing a strike, that leads me to the second major thing I believe prevents real life fighters from instantly trying to escape the clinch against the cage. That is they don't want to eat a big strike leaving the clinch. This is definitely a more tricky one to put into the game, the only way I can think of doing it is having higher vulnerability for getting hit just as you leave the clinch. So basically, if you time your escape just as the opponent STARTED to throw the strike, you would gain that clinch GA I was talking about and be safe. If you time your escape as the strike is ABOUT TO LAND however, you'd suffer from a fairly big vulnerability shot.

Just some ideas that I'm sure are not perfect, but I do think that clinches against the cage seem to be too risk free for people who try to escape immediately.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

I think the issue currently in this area is that in the game, there is no real reason to not immediately attempt to escape when you are against the cage.

As I'm sure you are aware, in real life there are a number of reasons the escape attempt is not always immediately fired off. I can see two major reasons being translated into the game fairly effectively to try and close that gap between video game behavior and real life fight behavior as much as possible (though obviously that gap can never truly be closed).

First is stamina. I feel like many fighters do not want to spend a ton of energy trying to muscle out of the clinch as fast as possible, instead wait for a more opportune time. I'm not sure if there is some sort of grapple advantage currently for the clinch or not, but either way I believe a system similar to GA should be in place but instead of determining whether or not you transition (or escape the clinch) it instead determines how much stamina you use escaping the clinch. You could gain positive clinch GA by striking your opponent, having more short term stamina than your opponent, and timing your escape for when the opponent just starts to throw a strike.

Speaking of the opponent throwing a strike, that leads me to the second major thing I believe prevents real life fighters from instantly trying to escape the clinch against the cage. That is they don't want to eat a big strike leaving the clinch. This is definitely a more tricky one to put into the game, the only way I can think of doing it is having higher vulnerability for getting hit just as you leave the clinch. So basically, if you time your escape just as the opponent STARTED to throw the strike, you would gain that clinch GA I was talking about and be safe. If you time your escape as the strike is ABOUT TO LAND however, you'd suffer from a fairly big vulnerability shot.

Just some ideas that I'm sure are not perfect, but I do think that clinches against the cage seem to be too risk free for people who try to escape immediately.

I don't think there's any point in trying to explain to him how it works in real life. They know how it works, and it has nothing to do with "two are needed to tango". GPD himself said that the majority of people don't like being "Usmaned" so they removed that option. That's all there is to it. That's also the reason why there are barely any 5 round fights (because I saw someone mention pacing and strategising for 5 rounds). Catering to the casual fan base is the answer to most if not all of these questions.

[Irish0331]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

This was not done to give preassure fighters any advantage, nor were any positions intentionally removed for any reason.

We rebuilt clinch from the ground up with a new engine, which necessitated entirely new animations and content, and we didn't have the resources to add all the positions we had before. The goal of the new system was to make clinch more dynamic and smooth, as it honestly is in real fights.

Yes, against the cage fighters often grind and hold their opponents longer than you can in ours, but when two fighters are hugging it out, so to speak, that's a mutual effort. That can happen in our game just fine, but it takes two. If you have someone clinched irl and they're backing up and actively trying to get out, they will. It's very hard to actually hold someone there against their will, without a cage behind them.

But ya know.... we never do anything for 'real' MMA fans.... Don't discount how much the behavior of real fighters impacts the appearance of a 'real' fight compared to people playing a video game.

It wasn't my intention to say you weren't doing anything for real MMA fans. I thought I was doing something wrong and just trying to get some suggestions. This game brings alot to the table, but I can't help that it feels frantic sometimes.

[rsl1]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

I've asked both on here & on discord but haven't really got an answer.

If you increase the stamina cost slider and possibly up the damage one as well, does the AI adjust to compensate for the additional stamina drain and potential risk of getting KO'd due to the greater power coming back at it?

Is it adaptive in that way so that it will adjust it's gameplan/output and show more caution/pick its shots so as not to gas out as easily?

I only ask as I wonder if this is a way to slow the pace of the fight a little due to the risk of gassing quicker & possible getting KO's quicker while gassed.

Does anybody know if this is the case? Hopefully Skynet reads this as he will sure know the answer but any anecdotal info from the community would be helpful too as I have tried to test it but not sure if it makes much difference.

[Irish0331]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

I've asked both on here & on discord but haven't really got an answer.

If you increase the stamina cost slider and possibly up the damage one as well, does the AI adjust to compensate for the additional stamina drain and potential risk of getting KO'd due to the greater power coming back at it?

Is it adaptive in that way so that it will adjust it's gameplan/output and show more caution/pick its shots so as not to gas out as easily?

I only ask as I wonder if this is a way to slow the pace of the fight a little due to the risk of gassing quicker & possible getting KO's quicker while gassed.

Does anybody know if this is the case? Hopefully Skynet reads this as he will sure know the answer but any anecdotal info from the community would be helpful too as I have tried to test it but not sure if it makes much difference.

Those are great questions and I'd love to hear the answer.

[Skynet]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

I've asked both on here & on discord but haven't really got an answer.

If you increase the stamina cost slider and possibly up the damage one as well, does the AI adjust to compensate for the additional stamina drain and potential risk of getting KO'd due to the greater power coming back at it?

Is it adaptive in that way so that it will adjust it's gameplan/output and show more caution/pick its shots so as not to gas out as easily?

I only ask as I wonder if this is a way to slow the pace of the fight a little due to the risk of gassing quicker & possible getting KO's quicker while gassed.

Does anybody know if this is the case? Hopefully Skynet reads this as he will sure know the answer but any anecdotal info from the community would be helpful too as I have tried to test it but not sure if it makes much difference.

Stamina changes will impact the AI, yes. However changes in power will not impact their pace very much.

It will change when they choose to counter and defend, and which strikes they do so with, but not so much their overall pace.

[rsl1]

Re: Slowing the pace suggestions

Stamina changes will impact the AI, yes. However changes in power will not impact their pace very much.

It will change when they choose to counter and defend, and which strikes they do so with, but not so much their overall pace.

Excellent, thankyou for your response. It sounds like both have an effect but the stamina is the more important one with regards to output & pace.
I shall keep tweaking the stamina settings as well as adjusting the damage a little to try and find my preferred balance.

Thanks again