Getting back to the Maddens of old

[mooch49]

Why do you think old Maddens, particularly 04-08 on ps2/xbox are overall better than today's? I'm playing 07 and the AI is so much smarter. The developers should really take a hard look at those games and see just how real they play. For example, the 1st half is coming to an end. The computer has the ball in my territory. I have no timeouts. They take the clock down to like 2 seconds knowing I can't stop it. It's those type of little things that make them superior in my opinion. I understand we live in a very different society, but that doesn't mean the focus has to be just as different.

It's probably too late to make changes to this year's game. But I implore the folks at EA Sports to use those games as models and begin to migrate some of their aspects into Madden 23 and beyond. There is no excuse why they can't. If hardware wasn't an issue then, it shouldn't be today. But I am sure the powers that be won't allow that to happen. However, It does seem the developers have started to listen to the community for this year's game. Hopefully they will continue to do so and maybe, just maybe we finally get a game that plays more like yesterday's rather than just looking like today's.

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[TheBleedingRed21]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

I’m going to heavily disagree with a caveat.

Those maddens are not better than the current (next gen mainly for me) maddens at all, gameplay wise.

Franchise mode might be better overall, but the gameplay is impossible to play for me now, of course it’s my opinion. AI as you said might’ve been better but I won’t comment on that as I cannot remember and can’t even play a game now to test as gameplay is just so outdated.

You do need to remember though, the older days you had less animations to deal with, didn’t have to worry about imperfect animation clipping, etc. The better graphics get and the more models become lifelike, you have a muuuuch harder time making things appear seamless. Priorities and time management are much different now. Especially with all the modes they have to have now.

I will agree that no doubt, the PS2 ERA was at a really good high for sports gaming.

[canes21]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

I’m going to heavily disagree with a caveat.

Those maddens are not better than the current (next gen mainly for me) maddens at all, gameplay wise.

Franchise mode might be better overall, but the gameplay is impossible to play for me now, of course it’s my opinion. AI as you said might’ve been better but I won’t comment on that as I cannot remember and can’t even play a game now to test as gameplay is just so outdated.

You do need to remember though, the older days you had less animations to deal with, didn’t have to worry about imperfect animation clipping, etc. The better graphics get and the more models become lifelike, you have a muuuuch harder time making things appear seamless. Priorities and time management are much different now. Especially with all the modes they have to have now.

I will agree that no doubt, the PS2 ERA was at a really good high for sports gaming.

I will agree with this post for the most part. Looking back there is plenty of nostalgia with the PS2 era. The games were good for their times and did do some things better than what Madden does now, but overall the gameplay on the field was not better back then than it is now.

Madden 21 on next gen consoles still has it's own issues, but I would take its gameplay over any other football game not names APF 2k8 at this point. Where current Maddens have struggled is in the mode variety and mode depth. They had all sorts of different modes to play and many of them were deeper than any of the few modes we get now.

Franchise mode had much more going on in it. It didn't all work properly and some of it was meaningless in the end, but it had a healthy dose of filler content to satisfy most.

Current Maddens have obviously struggled with having depth in their modes. We are finally getting a refocus on franchise mode this year and most of the additions we are getting this year or got last year in the live content updates are fleshed out more than they were in the PS2 era. The overall amount of features in the mode may still be lacking compared to the PS2 era, but the depth to each feature we have now is greater.

If EA continues the trajectory they're on now, in a year or two franchise mode should have more features and overall depth than the PS2 games and next gen Madden will basically do everything better than those games did outside of all of the different minigames that were offered back in the day as well as things like tournaments/playoff mode.

The biggest thing I always see people referring to as being the best in the series back in the PS2 era was the locomotion and passing game. Players were slower, bad to physically turn more and couldn't cut on a dime as easily, passes were slower and had higher trajectories. During the PS3/360 era the locomotion of the game was utter garbage essentially and the passing game was terrible. This has slowly been changing over the years on current gen consoles.

On next gen consoles that is fixed and I would argue the speed of the game and the passing game as a whole is the best it has ever been with next gen 21. The movement is the closest we've ever been to the PS2 era movement since that generation was moved on from. It's even better now and rooted in real world data making it much more authentic.

Many people point towards NCAA 14 being the best EA football game or being the next best thing after the PS2 games. I can easily say that for me personally next gen Madden 21 has made it pretty difficult for me to even enjoy NCAA 14 on the field anymore. I definitely have zero desire to play older Maddens via emulators as well. Madden 21 on my Series S has essentially made stop playing 2k5, the PS2 Maddens, and has severely reduced my want to play NCAA 14 or 2k8.

Whenever I play NCAA 14 all I can do is look at everything and say Madden does this better now. The blocking, movement, passing game, defense as a whole, etc., and it makes me impatient for the new college game. And I also believe next gen Madden 21 is the closest EA has ever gotten to the feel of 2k8. The speed of the game, the animation quality, player differentiation and styles, etc. It still has to fix some things to match the greatness of 2k8, but this is easily the closest EA has ever gotten to matching 2k8.

If EA can flesh out line play more, which they've claimed they have this year, make the passing game timing based, get penalties working better, and add little things like snaps over the head of holders and punters, then I think on the field they will have a game that definitely gives 2k8 a run for its money finally, but compared to the PS2 Madden games, I don't know how an unbiased individual could prefer that gameplay over next gen Madden anymore. Even old gen 21 was decently solid on the field without the next gen locomotion and improvements and gave the PS2 games a run for their money.

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[mooch49]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

I guess what stands out most to me about the PS2 Maddens is the AI. I absolutely love how the computer uses clock. You actually have time to make defensive changes. In today's Maddden, it's get to the line and hike in about 2 or 3 seconds. I wish they go back to giving us more time to make adjustments. That, along with the wonky animations and AI in game management are my biggest pet peeves with today's Maddens. Granted ps2 maddens suffered from bad suction due to the limitations of the hardware, yet the animations were very realistic. Overall, I just like the pace better in the PS2 Maddens. They also capture a lot more of the little things.

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[Aestis]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

There might be specific examples where AI (e.g. clock management in the given example) back in 2005-2010 performed better.

But to claim the gameplay overall is better, or even in the same ballpark, is a ludicrous missing-forest-for-the-trees proposition.

[TarHeelPhenom]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

Why do you think old Maddens, particularly 04-08 on ps2/xbox are overall better than today's? I'm playing 07 and the AI is so much smarter. The developers should really take a hard look at those games and see just how real they play. For example, the 1st half is coming to an end. The computer has the ball in my territory. I have no timeouts. They take the clock down to like 2 seconds knowing I can't stop it. It's those type of little things that make them superior in my opinion. I understand we live in a very different society, but that doesn't mean the focus has to be just as different.

It's probably too late to make changes to this year's game. But I implore the folks at EA Sports to use those games as models and begin to migrate some of their aspects into Madden 23 and beyond. There is no excuse why they can't. If hardware wasn't an issue then, it shouldn't be today. But I am sure the powers that be won't allow that to happen. However, It does seem the developers have started to listen to the community for this year's game. Hopefully they will continue to do so and maybe, just maybe we finally get a game that plays more like yesterday's rather than just looking like today's.

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I just play Madden 07 Franchise Mode as recently as 3 weeks ago and had a blast. I think what made it so good was how deep the game was. The Franchise Mode was ridiculously deep with being able to go in and set each teams gameplay, putting percentage amounts on how much PT you wanted your first string to have vs second string. The player morale, the team/opponent weekly breakdowns. The emails, local and national newspapers and the Tony Bruno show just added immersion. The on the field play was good for it's time and the superstars played like superstars. The college all-star game. Add to that Owner Mode where you could set ticket and concession prices and do forth and that game was jammed packed. I started a franchise and got to week 2 when I stopped because well....

I bought a Next Gen console lol. All of my attention has been there. But anytime I want to experience nostalgia and a really deep franchise experience I can always go back and pick up where I left off.

[Kingd803]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

I have to agree with the original post. And disagree with the folks disagreeing with what I’m agreeing with. Lol

I guess for me it starts with the running animations. I play a lot of Ps2 ncaa games. And the running animations are just better. When the player reaches max speed he no longer hunches over and stands straight up as he’s running as fast as possible.

And the passing game feels much more fluid to me. A lot of the QB animations are more fluid. QBs will pat the ball some as they step up in the pocket and it just looks more natural.

Something about madden in the last decade or so just looks “off” and I can’t put my finger on it. It’s very off putting to me.

I think it’s a big combination of little things. Like the ball not being tight to a QBs hand as his throws. And it moving a little bit as he brings his arm up to pass. The Animations of the QB just bobbing up and down in the pocket looks terrible to me. It’s based on what QBs do. But it’s just off.

And most of the stuff is legacy stuff from when the game was built from the ground up for the 360 era stuff. Most of the new stuff they add looks much better. But it’s the stuff they haven’t replaced that I’ve seen for what, 10+ years that bugs the hell out of me.

Overall it’s definitely preference. But I enjoy the ps2 era football games better.

And one last thing. I’ve said this for years. I’m not sure if I’m correct or not. But the scale of the players to the field has looked off since the transition to 360. The players look to big IMO. The scale seemed much better in thr ps2 days. Maybe it’s actually the ps2 scale that was off. But my brain likes it better.

[Madden08PCgmr]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

I can answer this in a single word;

FRANCHISE

As Roger Clemens famously said though, I think people 'misremember' some of the (many) issues with that generation of releases. They weren't flawless or above reproach. Look at the Madden Manifesto for crying out loud!

Despite the issues, franchise mode was so great that I could overlook the warts. Even warts in franchise mode itself. Which were considerable.

There is no going back for me though. They marginalized me for FAR too long. I'm not willing to forgive.

[Madden08PCgmr]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

And most of the stuff is legacy stuff from when the game was built from the ground up for the 360 era stuff. Most of the new stuff they add looks much better. But it’s the stuff they haven’t replaced that I’ve seen for what, 10+ years that bugs the hell out of me.

Amen. Its a stunning visual product. Props to them for getting that right.

But the foundation was never set properly. Blocking has never been adequate, let alone good. Zone coverage is an abomination, more often than not.

Look at all the weeks/months/years spent pouring over ratings, sliders, then we find out even penalty settings effect animations. we can't definitively say 'x' impacts 'y'.

Too many fundamental football aspects are a hot mess, inside a dumpster fire, inside a trainwreck.

[Broncos86]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

IMO, they weren't. Everybody loves to look at Franchise and gush over it, and it was good. But the gameplay? No pocket formation at all. Superman Linebackers. Cornerbacks with eyes in the back of their head. No gang tackles of any kind.

Madden 2005 felt amazing because at the time, the graphics were still pretty awesome compared to early versions and franchise mode finally got some legit love.

But holy cow did I want to throw my controller in games. I don't really think Madden was better, back then. It was simply a time when things were new and fresh, consoles were accelerating at mach speed, and additions to the game were mind blowing.

It was a good era, don't get me wrong. I did a few midnight launches so I could have Madden ready to go and those were good times. But I'm also aware that I look back with rose-tinted glasses.

[jfsolo]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

IMO, they weren't. Everybody loves to look at Franchise and gush over it, and it was good. But the gameplay? No pocket formation at all. Superman Linebackers. Cornerbacks with eyes in the back of their head. No gang tackles of any kind.

Madden 2005 felt amazing because at the time, the graphics were still pretty awesome compared to early versions and franchise mode finally got some legit love.

But holy cow did I want to throw my controller in games. I don't really think Madden was better, back then. It was simply a time when things were new and fresh, consoles were accelerating at mach speed, and additions to the game were mind blowing.

It was a good era, don't get me wrong. I did a few midnight launches so I could have Madden ready to go and those were good times. But I'm also aware that I look back with rose-tinted glasses.

Yeah, I never argue with people about it, but to me sports games of that era aren't even close.

[NoleFan]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

I think I gravitate toward them over the last 8-10 months or so because they're from a time where games were easier for me to pick up, play and enjoy. A time when I had all the time in the world to game. Now, my main thing is feeling like I'm progressing in my seasons of dynasty/franchise and having to learn button combos for maneuvering my player just isn't high on my list of things to do.

[scottyo60]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

For me it’s simply the AI of the old games adjusting to what I’m doing on offense. We did a league in 21 on PS4. We did a fantasy draft so don’t think so much in terms of player, but formation. Shotgun five wide. I realized they kept calling the same two plays. Single high 2-4-5 man or a safety blitz.

To test what I was seeing, I just went all in running two plays. If I picked one play, the computer went man. If I picked the other, they’d run the safety blitz. Hot route a go to the WR on the furthest left 7 min quarters, all pro, I had 1000 yards passing and 120 points at the end of the game on 12 TDs with the starting QB. The back up put up another 200 yards. Here’s where this gets fun. The internet went out and I got booted end of game. Went back in and the computer ran the exact same two plays the next game. Ended up going for less yards because the D didn’t have as many turnovers but it was extreme.

I say this as that is one thing I like about NCAA 14. There’s money plays, but I see adjustments to try to stop them. I love Madden on next gen in terms of improvements/animation/gameplay. It just always gets back though that the computer doesn’t seem to know how to call a game. You have to handicap house rules to help the CPU. It’s like it’s gotten worse in the last 8 years and I don’t understand how.

[KillerFart]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

Madden 12 on PS2 is one of the biggest hidden gems in Madden history.

[NickyJay]

Re: Getting back to the Maddens of old

Franchise mode in 04-08 had good presentation, but the AI in franchise mode was horrid. Teams signing 5 punters, 4 right tackles and no left tackles, etc.



Getting newspapers, easy stat viewing, and easily being able to play or watch other teams' games was great. The gameplay was bad, but the presentation really was great. I last got Madden 20, and tried to get back into Madden 08. I just can't do it.