Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

[jfsolo]

https://fortune.com/2022/04/12/everyday-ai-ea-sports-video-games/

I know that I'm on an island on OS in thinking this, but IMO despise obviously still needing a lot of work in Madden 22 the current CPU A.I. is exponentially better than it's ever been. No other version is even close.

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[Hooe]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

The on-field AI in Madden is generally competent, with a few specific strengths and weaknesses that I'm sure others later in this thread will call out. I do look forward to any AI improvements on offer.

The thing which EA Sports cannot afford to leave behind, however, is in-game communication of AI decision making. Generally all sports games do a terrible job relaying what the AI is thinking to the user, and Madden is no exception.

Games lauded for good AI notably telegraph to the user what the AI is thinking through audio cues, animation cues, and UI. For example, in the Halo games, Grunts panic when a nearby Elite leading their squad is killed. In the Batman Arkham games, patrolling guards will react when they stumble upon an unconscious ally or discover an environmental change. In Metal Gear Solid, guards will radio for help when they discover something suspicious. In Sid Meier's Civilization games, you are very openly communicated which AI factions are allies, which are at war, and so on. In Into The Breach, AI actions are communicated to the player a turn in advance so that the player may plan his actions intelligently.

By contrast, in Madden, the strongest telegraph we ever receive that the AI has changed strategy is the immersion-breaking Coaching Adjustment UI prompts. We never know if or when the AI has picked up on a play calling tendency, if or when they are deliberately picking on a weaker defender, why the AI might decide to go for it or punt, why the AI decided to make a particular roster move, and so on. Additionally, any strategy elements we are offered in the UI are vague at best and non-functional at worst? For example, the play calling breakdowns offered in the weekly gameplanning sections of Franchise mode are very obviously not honored during gameplay, and as of Madden 22 it is my observation that the numbers do not change correctly based on users' play-calling in multiplayer leagues (a step back from previous years).

A good AI is not only a smart game-playing agent, but it is also an opponent that communicates to the human player what it is doing, as to allow the human to react to those actions and feel smart for making the correct decisions in response. Sports games AIs are terrible at communication, and they need to do a much better job with this facet of their implementation going forward.

[oneamongthefence]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

The on-field AI in Madden is generally competent, with a few specific strengths and weaknesses that I'm sure others later in this thread will call out. I do look forward to any AI improvements on offer.

The thing which EA Sports cannot afford to leave behind, however, is in-game communication of AI decision making. Generally all sports games do a terrible job relaying what the AI is thinking to the user, and Madden is no exception.

Games lauded for good AI notably telegraph to the user what the AI is thinking through audio cues, animation cues, and UI. For example, in the Halo games, Grunts panic when a nearby Elite leading their squad is killed. In the Batman Arkham games, patrolling guards will react when they stumble upon an unconscious ally or discover an environmental change. In Metal Gear Solid, guards will radio for help when they discover something suspicious. In Sid Meier's Civilization games, you are very openly communicated which AI factions are allies, which are at war, and so on. In Into The Breach, AI actions are communicated to the player a turn in advance so that the player may plan his actions intelligently.

By contrast, in Madden, the strongest telegraph we ever receive that the AI has changed strategy is the immersion-breaking Coaching Adjustment UI prompts. We never know if or when the AI has picked up on a play calling tendency, if or when they are deliberately picking on a weaker defender, why the AI might decide to go for it or punt, why the AI decided to make a particular roster move, and so on. Additionally, any strategy elements we are offered in the UI are vague at best and non-functional at worst? For example, the play calling breakdowns offered in the weekly gameplanning sections of Franchise mode are very obviously not honored during gameplay, and as of Madden 22 it is my observation that the numbers do not change correctly based on users' play-calling in multiplayer leagues (a step back from previous years).

A good AI is not only a smart game-playing agent, but it is also an opponent that communicates to the human player what it is doing, as to allow the human to react to those actions and feel smart for making the correct decisions in response. Sports games AIs are terrible at communication, and they need to do a much better job with this facet of their implementation going forward.

Yeah it makes sense in those other games. But football all the proof you need is in the gameplay. Things like being able to find mismatches, calling audibles, players being able to dynamically avoid defenders, play-calling that adjusts to users etc. We don't need obvious cues just less of the issues that have historically plagued Madden. Franchise mode is where it's most needed but, well, you know.

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[simbayless]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

I hope they improve the AI coverage &AI QB smart decisions
Imagine the CPU Tom Brady picking your defense apart and I'm not talking about perfect accuracy
But ROBO Decision making is a good problem to have

[Heisman]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

The AI can start with not calling timeouts at 1:01 left in the half every game.

[mestevo]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

Yeah it makes sense in those other games. But football all the proof you need is in the gameplay. Things like being able to find mismatches, calling audibles, players being able to dynamically avoid defenders, play-calling that adjusts to users etc. We don't need obvious cues just less of the issues that have historically plagued Madden. Franchise mode is where it's most needed but, well, you know.

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There are ways Madden can do it too though. The broadcast team can point out the over-the-top coverage following Tyreek Hill, or highlight the CB pressing the TE on many plays every play to disrupt the quick game - just like a real NFL broadcast does. Yes, you can SEE this too, but it's not something that needs a label when it can be told to us organically in the game.

It could be addressed other ways / times too, players and coaches can approach the head coach with opportunities based on how the game is going and the coverages they're seeing. These feedback channels may change based on the position you're playing (QB, HC, a coordinator, etc) but the purpose is the same. These should be less about canned scenarios (+3 catching if you can get Bob 50 yards this drive - though there is an appeal/opportunity for that feedback loop there in a non-sim mode but I digress) and more about feedback from the game about how the AI is handling the set of players on the field and the production and tendencies demonstrated in prior games.

This can then be extended upon later in the game 'look at his production, clearly he is /isn't affected by the (type of play specific to that player), clearly some adjustments need to be made by (team who isn't successfully executing).

Obviously in competitive and optionally in franchise, you'd want to suppress this where it makes sense. It doesn't need to be a break from everything to play an animation either, I'm sure there are a number of creative ways to handle it.

[Quentin32]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

I just got all pro on ps3 the yesterday day.

I’m playing the game against the cpu.

I blitz the cpu. The qb step up in the pocket. Throws the pass. It’s incomplete, but it’s a flag on the play. It’s a Illegal forward pass. I was like damn this game got glitches because the qb clearly was behind the LOS. Put my controller down for a sec to look at my phone. I hear the commentary say the play is being challenged. I was like wtf? I still was like it’s glitchy because he clearly was behind the LOS. I swear it was like All pro was like I got something for your Azz. This darn game showed the replay. that play was damn close. Way closer than I thought. Literally less than 6 inches. Showed multiple angles. The cpu won their challenge. Mind you this was my first full game. Right there that’s grade A AI. One could only imagine what 15 years of development from that team could have done smh

[jfsolo]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

The 2K Forum is that way ^

[Quentin32]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

The 2K Forum is that way ^

The thread is about AI In games. I gave a example of really good AI from a game 15 years ago

[TarHeelPhenom]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

I think 2k basketball does a decent job in the sense of when a guy gets a hot hand, the AI sends double teams his way, or if a post player is feasting they either send doubles or they dig. They have an ACE engine dedicated to making the AI better and don't get me wrong, it's far from perfect...and better in some years than others. But, to have something dedicated to adaptable AI is something I would love for Madden to adopt. The thing is, it takes years to build upon it and patience by us why they build it...and also patience by the Madden team not to scrap it after one year.

But, I'm glad to hear this news and hope it enhances the game going forward.

[JazzMan]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

Playing against the AI in Madden has definitely improved the last year or two but it still has a loooong way to go

QBs will throw checkdowns for 3 or 4 yards every time if you play anything for medium/deep coverage. They'll maybe take 1 or 2 shots downfield a game if that. I'm running Cover 1 most of the game, I wish the QB would take some shots and test my corners

Defensively, the AI still cheats. They know exactly what play call you have made and are shameless about it. Anytime on All-Madden in you call a run play, boom, 8 guys in the box. Call a fake punt for the first time all season? AI knows it's coming.

Even offensively. They come out in Goalline, I hit Run Commit, and I can see/hear the QB audible to a pass play and score easily; its cool if the QB can recognize that but why is it happening every single time I choose to use Run Commit?

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[canes21]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

AI is one of the biggest weaknesses of the franchise and has been for years.

Compared to the previously mentioned coach engine in NBA 2k, it is embarrassing at times how bad the AI can be in Madden.

I never see the CPU analyze their own roster and call plays around it. I never see them compare rosters and change their gameplan because of it. I never see them adapt midgame to what I'm doing or simply what they cannot do.

They don't dynamically start doubling my WR who has 100 yards before the half. They don't load the box after I've called the same run play 10 times straight.

They don't go to the hot hand. They don't change things up when an injury occurs.

If there is any logic for any of that above, I've not seen it. If it there, make it more pronounced. If it isn't, please get it in.

That's only part of what's missing. Let's not even get into how they mishandle the clock, every team has the same 1:01 timeout philosophy, etc.

I'd like to be in a close game and not have to call a timeout for the CPU so they can kick a FG as time expires despite them having at least one to use.

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[Freebirdz]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

I hope AI doesn't take a big leap. That cheating *** AI was never the problem. They actually need to dumb it down a little, except for the deep ball.

[simbayless]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

I just got all pro on ps3 the yesterday day.

I’m playing the game against the cpu.

I blitz the cpu. The qb step up in the pocket. Throws the pass. It’s incomplete, but it’s a flag on the play. It’s a Illegal forward pass. I was like damn this game got glitches because the qb clearly was behind the LOS. Put my controller down for a sec to look at my phone. I hear the commentary say the play is being challenged. I was like wtf? I still was like it’s glitchy because he clearly was behind the LOS. I swear it was like All pro was like I got something for your Azz. This darn game showed the replay. that play was damn close. Way closer than I thought. Literally less than 6 inches. Showed multiple angles. The cpu won their challenge. Mind you this was my first full game. Right there that’s grade A AI. One could only imagine what 15 years of development from that team could have done smh

You have a point the Madden challenge system is not even decent at best and I never understood why they never improved the AI in that department 🤷

[roadman]

Re: Fortune- EA Sports says video game A.I. is poised for a big leap

I haven't played NG yet and I haven't played LG for several months now.

I didn't think the CPU called TO's anymore at the 1:01 mark on LG anymore, so,

surprised it happens on NG.

I just watched the video that was linked and I doubt too many people watched the video

because based on the video, higher ups from Madden, FIFA and NHL were discussing

enhancing AI in their respective games, not other sports games.

I think we all know that Madden AI has been lacking for awhile, but has been better the past few years except the darn CPU QB's who dink and dunk all game long. ugh

I will try to reach out and see if I can get a response. It can't hurt.

Oh, the challenge system, another thumbs down, thanks sim.