Handcheck Defense vs. Zone Defense: Which really made scoring harder?

[ojandpizza]

Quote: Originally Posted by VDusen04

On the other side, we'd never allow for a defender to jump into an offensive player (or even stand under them) after the offensive player had already taken off and was moving horizontally to the rim. .

I think it also has to be understood that both sides will never be fully equally, nor have the really ever been to begin with. In not so past years this was more at the rim, but it’s moved it’s way out away from the basket over the years to where now it’s out at the 3 point line..

But in reality, if a defender isn’t vertical, you can’t really call the “offensive player jumped into him” because you can’t tell an offensive player how he has to shoot, and what his shooting motion has to be. I know I’ve used the example in the past, but someone like MJ would literally draw fouls turning completely backwards and lunging his back into people. So the idea of offensive players not jumping into defenders, or that it’s never been allowed I don’t feel is entirely true, it’s just moved itself further from the basket..

Like mentioned, in many cases if you’re vertical they do a pretty good job of not bailing out the shooter on most nights.. I understand Harden is awful to watch at times, but it’s also important to realize he’s not the norm but more so exception. We had Reggie Miller change rules for often often he drew fouls right his legs, KD with how often he drew fouls with the rip through, better verticality rules at the rim to slow down how often guys like Jordan - young Wade were getting such frequent trips to the FT line on plays at the rim.. I think we’ll see something similar to negate some of Harden’s tricks..



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[VDusen04]

Quote: Originally Posted by ojandpizza

But in reality, if a defender isn’t vertical, you can’t really call the “offensive player jumped into him” because you can’t tell an offensive player how he has to shoot, and what his shooting motion has to be. I know I’ve used the example in the past, but someone like MJ would literally draw fouls turning completely backwards and lunging his back into people. So the idea of offensive players not jumping into defenders, or that it’s never been allowed I don’t feel is entirely true, it’s just moved itself further from the basket..

This may be where we disagree a bit. If an offensive player is stationary (again, let's say after picking up his dribble following a stepback) and a defender is already midway through an airborne close out on that stationary offensive player but will be falling well short of the offensive player's stationary zone, it shouldn't really matter where an offensive player's natural shooting motion takes him as long as it's not intercepting the defender already in motion. If that shooting motion does intercept a defender who had that space or the rights to that space first, that should be the shooter's problem, not the defender's. The defender shouldn't be punished for properly sniffing out a stepback and closing out on a guy who's picked up in dribble in a stationary space.

That's kind of the crux of the debate. Right now, perimeter defenders are at a severe disadvantage because many offensive players have begun to discover that they can purposely seek out contact (i.e. run into a defender's established space) and still reap a reward. There's no real counter for that aside from opting to just let offensive players shoot and drive as they please. Even then, I've seen one too many clips of guys like James Harden lowering their shoulder into a defender trying his best to keep a legal distance and still being called for a defensive foul... only because the offensive player went out of their way to hit him.

As for Jordan's back-facing reverses, the proper baseline of logic was still usually there. If a defender had that space already established, then Jordan could do whatever he wanted after he jumped - turn backwards, spin, attempt a dunk - but the defender would still be holding a legal defending position and would typically be afforded that space. If Jordan was intercepted by a defender after he'd already leaped toward a given area, however, that'd be a sensible defensive foul, whether Jordan had his back turned or not. Whether he's backward or not is pretty immaterial.

[CMH]

I had to stop watching the video.


First five minutes he talks about hand-checking and proceeds to show zero footage of hand-checking until he spends a couple seconds on it.


What's the point? It's like an MTV video of women dancing in bikinis while the performer sings about his high school crush.