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75 Greatest NBA Players (NBA 75th season celebration?)

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Old 11-01-2020, 12:39 AM   #17
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Re: 75 Greatest NBA Players (NBA 75th season celebration?)

Joker only made the list because Giannis did.. I couldnít add Giannis and not give someone else with two great years a fair shot as well. Itís hypocritical to pick them but not let guys like Hill and Roy have a shot, but the assumed idea is they will keep going. I voted them in using basically the same logic Shaq was voted in for the original team, but I would personally be fine with removing both of them in favor of someone from the narrowly missed list, or guys from the injury list who were robbed of more peak seasons.

Jokerís last two playoff runs were substantially better than any year from Iverson IMO. My next guy up would probably be Marion, or perhaps Billups, frankly if Iverson didnít have his accolades like MVP, 7x All-NBA, 11x All-Star, I wouldnít even have him considered. I donít give him bonus points for it being impressive for how short he is, or any of the not basketball related stuff, so I feel like giving him honorable mention is doing him a solid. I know many are higher on him, I used to be too, but I feel like since 2000 weíve seen so many better versions of the scoring guard than what he gave us.

Iíll agree with Melo, heís another I think could be taken off. I gave him a bit of a bonus for coming back this year and contributing in ways that everyone had all but wrote him off for. Something Iverson as previously mentioned couldnít do. He would qualify for a list like this with his team USA achievements alone, if those are even factored in to something like this, but I think his peak couple of seasons are quite a bit better than most give him credit for. At his very best, though incredibly short lived, he was capable of having nights where he was a top 10 guy out of a list like this IMO.

Reggie is tough. Playoff Reggie makes this list, regular season Reggie doesnít really even come all that close. I feel like he peaked as a 3rd team level guy with some massive playoff moments, but also played most of his career prior to this listís starting season. He has two All-Star selections post 96, most of these guys have just amassed more ďstuffĒ to qualify.
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Old 11-01-2020, 01:00 AM   #18
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Re: 75 Greatest NBA Players (NBA 75th season celebration?)

I gotta go to bat for Pau too. Dude carried some pretty lowly Grizz teams to the playoffs, including winning 50 games when the 2nd best player on the team might have been James Posey. He was huge on those Lakers teams after that, I think could have realistically stolen one of those finals MVPs from Kobe even. At many points was labeled as ďbest big manĒ in the game during that stretch. He had such a long career, all of it falling in this time span, and finishes ranked in the top 50 All-Time in plenty of career stat marks.

I think the negative for him is he was never competing for MVPs or anything like that.. but that can be said for others on this list as well.
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Old 11-01-2020, 04:01 AM   #19
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Re: 75 Greatest NBA Players (NBA 75th season celebration?)

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Originally Posted by cima
From that list, Dwight is more deserving than:



- Melo

- Vince Carter

- Chris Paul

- Westbrook

- Harden

- Giannis

- McGrady

- Yao
Maybe if he'd kept up the production of that 5-6 year run he had in his prime he'd be in there. Yao at least had the excuse of a career ending injury. Dwight is just Dwight.
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Old 11-01-2020, 03:04 PM   #20
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Re: 75 Greatest NBA Players (NBA 75th season celebration?)

I mean Dwight is an 8x All-Star, 5x rebound champ, 2x block champ, 8x All-NBA, 5x All-Defense, 3x Def POY, NBA champion, 4 years top 5 in MVP shares (should have won in 2011), ranks highly in all sorts of career leaderboards.. I think Dwight has done quite a bit more than typically given credit for.

If he has a couple more deep playoff runs heíll likely pass Iverson in playoff points, Ben Wallace in playoff blocks, Moses in playoff rebounds.. his career playoff PER is dead even with Julius Erving and Elgin Baylor, number 1 All-Time in playoff rebound%, just behind David Robinson in playoff block%, etc..

Itís not like Dwight just has 4-5 solid years, itís more like 8-10 All-Star level years, 4 borderline MVP level years, and this years bonus year of being a big contributor on a championship team. And itís not fair to completely dismiss his injuries as well. His first team level of play stopped when he had his back surgery. Heís been able to come back and still be a solid player, but injuries possibly ruined his prime years as well.


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Old 11-01-2020, 09:55 PM   #21
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Re: 75 Greatest NBA Players (NBA 75th season celebration?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ojandpizza
Joker only made the list because Giannis did.. I couldnít add Giannis and not give someone else with two great years a fair shot as well. Itís hypocritical to pick them but not let guys like Hill and Roy have a shot, but the assumed idea is they will keep going. I voted them in using basically the same logic Shaq was voted in for the original team, but I would personally be fine with removing both of them in favor of someone from the narrowly missed list, or guys from the injury list who were robbed of more peak seasons.

Jokerís last two playoff runs were substantially better than any year from Iverson IMO. My next guy up would probably be Marion, or perhaps Billups, frankly if Iverson didnít have his accolades like MVP, 7x All-NBA, 11x All-Star, I wouldnít even have him considered. I donít give him bonus points for it being impressive for how short he is, or any of the not basketball related stuff, so I feel like giving him honorable mention is doing him a solid. I know many are higher on him, I used to be too, but I feel like since 2000 weíve seen so many better versions of the scoring guard than what he gave us.

Iíll agree with Melo, heís another I think could be taken off. I gave him a bit of a bonus for coming back this year and contributing in ways that everyone had all but wrote him off for. Something Iverson as previously mentioned couldnít do. He would qualify for a list like this with his team USA achievements alone, if those are even factored in to something like this, but I think his peak couple of seasons are quite a bit better than most give him credit for. At his very best, though incredibly short lived, he was capable of having nights where he was a top 10 guy out of a list like this IMO.

Reggie is tough. Playoff Reggie makes this list, regular season Reggie doesnít really even come all that close. I feel like he peaked as a 3rd team level guy with some massive playoff moments, but also played most of his career prior to this listís starting season. He has two All-Star selections post 96, most of these guys have just amassed more ďstuffĒ to qualify.

Iím not gonna do old man yells at cloud..but did you watch Iverson play?

Joker simply could not do what AI did. Iím not even gonna bother with stats because Iíve seen both of them play. Iím actually speechless.

This is some serious slander..lol.
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Old 11-01-2020, 11:28 PM   #22
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Re: 75 Greatest NBA Players (NBA 75th season celebration?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ojandpizza
Jokerís last two playoff runs were substantially better than any year from Iverson IMO. My next guy up would probably be Marion, or perhaps Billups, frankly if Iverson didnít have his accolades like MVP, 7x All-NBA, 11x All-Star, I wouldnít even have him considered. I donít give him bonus points for it being impressive for how short he is, or any of the not basketball related stuff, so I feel like giving him honorable mention is doing him a solid. I know many are higher on him, I used to be too, but I feel like since 2000 weíve seen so many better versions of the scoring guard than what he gave us.
The ****? Iverson won an MVP and is the 1 in the Lakers 15-1 2001 playoffs record. That is more significant than anything Joker's done in the last 2 playoffs.

Come on, man.
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Old 11-02-2020, 01:35 AM   #23
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Re: 75 Greatest NBA Players (NBA 75th season celebration?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cima
The ****? Iverson won an MVP and is the 1 in the Lakers 15-1 2001 playoffs record. That is more significant than anything Joker's done in the last 2 playoffs.



Come on, man.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeastbumrush
Iím not gonna do old man yells at cloud..but did you watch Iverson play?

Joker simply could not do what AI did. Iím not even gonna bother with stats because Iíve seen both of them play. Iím actually speechless.

This is some serious slander..lol.


Cima, what the **** does ďthe 1 in the 15-1Ē even matter? if you read what you quoted I mentioned his MVP.

I said Joker made the list based on the same criteria that Giannis did and I would be fine with removing them both. But if I were to add Iverson and still allow Joker/Giannis to qualify he is not the player I would remove first to give Iverson a spot because heís been better the past two post seasons than half the people on this list..

ďJoker simply could not do what AI didĒ and Iverson couldnít do what Joker has done either.

Iverson had a great crossover, and could get off his own shot as well or better than any other 6í and under player whoís ever played.. but his game lacked lots of substance outside of that. Too small to be a good defender, not a great passer, not even a great scorer by any means as it took him 46 minutes and 28 shots to get his 30 points. But there is substance to basketball outside the highlight real, outside of getting up lots of shots. Like Kobe said perhaps all players should feel fortunate that Iverson wasnít 6í5Ē.... but he wasnít so...

Joker this past two seasons had a combined playoff PER of 26.9, if it was enough games to qualify he would rank only 4th behind Jordan, Mikan and LeBron for his career... his top year (last year) is the 33rd highest ever, Iversonís best season is 239th. His top box +/- score is 15th, his other 164th, Iversonís best year ranks 200 and is his lone season in the top 250. He was the single best player in all of last years playoffs, and knocked off this years Clippers which is a substantially better feat than ďthe 1 in 15-1Ē. He led all of last years players in the playoffs in PER, BPM, OBPM, WS/48..

His playoff offensive rating is a 122, good for 3rd in league history currently, Iverson narrowly cracks the top 250 and 249. Jokerís per 100 possession stats are 34/15/9, Iverson 36/5/7 but the TS% is 61 vs 48. Heís the best passer in all of basketball (if not the best at least on a level playing field with Bron, CP3) and just picks apart playoff defenses. He and Iverson both accounted for 45 points per game with scoring and assisting Joker last year Iverson in 2001, dead even, with Joker playing 7 less minutes and taking 13 less shots per game. All while rebounding, and making various non box score plays for Murray with his ability to play off Joker screens.

Not too mention Joker just makes everyone around him better, which basically the exact opposite of Iversonís entire career. Murrayís ability to play off Jokerís unique ability to be a point-center, his screens, passing, inside out game, helped him make huge jumps in his game this year.

Iversonís biggest claim to something like this is that he carried a team to the finals. But that team was a middle of the road offense team who did as well as they did because they were elite on defense. And he was the worst defender of the group. Dikembe was credited with more win shares than Iverson in that playoff run, and obviously there is far more too it than just that but Iversonís sky high usage paired with high volume scoring and mediocre PER is basically James Harden but substantially less efficient than even playoff James Harden.

And cima its incredibly hypocritical to be so high on a player like Bron and not be able to realize how great Joker has been. There hasnít been another player in the last 30 years with that combination of scoring, passing, efficiency other than LeBron. Dudes playoff run last year was 33/17/11 per 100, with a league leading PER of just under 30, just narrowly missed 50/40/90 and a TS% just a tad under 60%..

Admittedly Joker comes in to every season looking a little out of shape and starts off looking pretty mediocre. But every postseason (the last two is all of them) heís been a top player in the league. If there were ďfirst team playoffsĒ he would have easily made the last 2 of them. Him being slow and boring doesnít change that.

But like I said before, I would be fine removing both Giannis and Joker.. but Iverson likely wouldnít be my pick to replace them. I donít know what separates him from a good chunk of other payers if they were putting up 25-30 shots a night. Kyrie, Dame, they would be the same, and possibly do it more efficiently. I just feel like he gets less impressive as time goes on as there are seemingly more and more guys who can do what he did.

And cima for as much as you were on the Kyrie is a bad leader train Iíd love to hear you justify how Iverson was a great leader.


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Old 11-02-2020, 01:49 AM   #24
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75 Greatest NBA Players (NBA 75th season celebration?)

And donít get me wrong on talent alone Iverson is better than guys on that list, just as Nique was on the original list.. but at some point there is the matter of how that translates to winning basketball, especially for lists like this, and Iverson to me is just way down on that list. Itís not shocking to me at all that the year they went to the finals is the only true good team heís ever played on. His approach to the game doesnít work on other types of teams, it doesnít blend with more talented teammates, heís a liability if you canít put great defenders around him, he canít mesh with an offense if he isnít chucking up a 3rd of the shots, etc. Even Denver was substantially better with Billups rather than him, and Iím equally not shocked that the worst Team USA weíve ever had featured him as the guy playing the most minutes and taking the most shots.


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