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Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

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Old 05-01-2022, 11:08 PM   #57
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

Another thing for me if you let players stay in the game, then a retaliatory foul has to happen. It doesn't matter if the original play is supposedly a "heat of the moment" situation and the reprisal is on purpose, FTs and ball back is not enough.

I've been bowed, eye poked, those things happen, but if a Draymond like pull down happened to me, I'd be fighting.
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Old 05-01-2022, 11:39 PM   #58
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by jfsolo
Another thing for me if you let players stay in the game, then a retaliatory foul has to happen. It doesn't matter if the original play is supposedly a "heat of the moment" situation and the reprisal is on purpose, FTs and ball back is not enough.

I've been bowed, eye poked, those things happen, but if a Draymond like pull down happened to me, I'd be fighting.
Respectfully, I don't agree with this either (I know, big surprise). Cooler heads prevailed throughout that entire Draymond exchange today. Like, literally no one made any move to escalate the situation. Four Grizzlies moseyed in to help Clarke up, Draymond was there by his side holding onto him to make sure he was okay, and then everyone walked to the bench for the review.

Quite honestly, if you're coming up swinging and fighting after that, I mean, that's your prerogative, but that's also on you. I've been accidentally or overzealously flagrant fouled many times in life and I never felt I had to start a fight as a result, especially if the player is there checking on me the second it happened. There's a giant chasm between those accidental hits and the dudes who submarined or clotheslined me with intent.

Anyway, just for the sake of levity, here's 10th grade me getting clotheslined for your viewing pleasure.


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Old 05-01-2022, 11:49 PM   #59
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by VDusen04
I feel it'd be sensible for the league to begin taking intent into account again, to some degree. Even if we set the Draymond situation aside for a moment, all of us are hoopers here and most of us should know by now that there's times where things happen merely as a byproduct of playing basketball, whether there's the threat of an ejection or not.

Since Kenyon Martin—who required league intervention around 2002—I can't really recall a big time epidemic of people seeking to dole out flagrant fouls because they were unphased by the repercussions of a Flagrant 1. I feel like we increased the punishment for something that wasn't really a big time problem in the new millennium in the first place.

Like, I'm still not sure what's gained by ejecting LeBron James for this.



If you slow it wayyyyyyyyyyy down you can sit there and frame all the intent you want. But the truth is this was a split second innocuous play that left LBJ immediately concerned because he knew he'd mistakenly gone too high. What do we get from ejecting him there? Mistakes are literally mistakes and the play itself happened so quickly that I'm not sure what anyone could learn from his ejection (never move your arms quickly?)

It sort of reminds me of the Zero Tolerance policies at school, where common sense and context were thrown out the window in favor of a hardlined approach that punished all equally. And I'm just not sure if that's always the best way to handle things.

I feel like we're not too far away from handing out flagrants for eye pokes, since we can reason that they could lead to another Allen Ray situation. And since we've decided to punish players regardless or intent or subsequent injury, then it'd be fair game.

Ejections and possible suspensions can be great deterrents for those acting with premeditation. They're not going to do a lot for the guys who were trying to play normal basketball and made mistakes on the fly.
I'm just not crazy about this thought process here. I clearly remember tons of players careers who literally hurt people on the court. One of the fouls I will always remember is a Portland player getting hurt by a Dallas player if I remember correctly. That player never recovered. The player that hurt him got a suspension for a few games and his team advanced. It's sad I can't remember the players'names .

Looking at other crazy fouls. Andrew Bynum vs JJ Barea. Like context wise. Down 3-0 in a series. In a close out game. A player who has been driving in the lane all series long gets an elbow mid air.
https://youtu.be/S9HbaF2X_ko

I don't even remember watching this one.
Karl Malone vs David Robinson
https://youtu.be/MrzQTm9C788

I think it's the fact that any player could turn into one of those players. It could be as tiny as missing a steal and making a terrible play to stop a basket.

Sorry I'm just throwing thoughts out here. Just doesn't make sense to let players do this to each other. If I got pulled by the jersey or slapped in the face. We fighting. Like I've said before. I've seen plenty of gyms "aired out" because of less.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jfsolo
Another thing for me if you let players stay in the game, then a retaliatory foul has to happen. It doesn't matter if the original play is supposedly a "heat of the moment" situation and the reprisal is on purpose, FTs and ball back is not enough.



I've been bowed, eye poked, those things happen, but if a Draymond like pull down happened to me, I'd be fighting.

EXACTLY... I saw someone low bridge someone in Jr High. A fight broke out immediately .
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Last edited by jeebs9; 05-01-2022 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 05-01-2022, 11:58 PM   #60
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by jeebs9
I'm just not crazy about this thought process here. I clearly remember tons of players careers who literally hurt people on the court. One of the fouls I will always remember is a Portland player getting hurt by a Dallas player if I remember correctly. That player never recovered. The player that hurt him got a suspension for a few games and his team advanced. It's sad I can't remember the players'names .

Looking at other crazy fouls. Andrew Bynum vs JJ Barea. Like context wise. Down 3-0 in a series. In a close out game. A player who has been driving in the lane all series long gets an elbow mid air.
https://youtu.be/S9HbaF2X_ko

I don't even remember watching this one.
Karl Malone vs David Robinson
https://youtu.be/MrzQTm9C788

I think it's the fact that any player could turn into one of those players. It could be as tiny as missing a steal and making a terrible play to stop a basket.

Sorry I'm just throwing thoughts out here. Just doesn't make sense to let players do this to each other. If I got pulled by the jersey or slapped in the face. We fighting. Like I've said before. I've seen plenty of gyms "aired out" because of less.

EXACTLY... I saw someone low bridge someone in Jr High. A fight broke out immediately .
That Andrew Bynum-JJ Barea foul is a perfect example of what I feel should constitute a Flagrant 2. Clear intent, very high likelihood for harmful outcome, completely airborne player, and malicious.

That's pretty much my point. I find it more suitable to generally stick to ejecting those who have shown ill-will and intent that manifests itself in an extremely dangerous way.

Throwing out players for accidents is a slippery slope, particularly when everything's fine. I don't find it particularly problematic to utilize context when making these calls. The moment we legislated intent out of the NBA rule book, things got weird, with dudes getting tossed for bang-bang plays they never really had a chance to think about and calculate prior.

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Old 05-02-2022, 12:21 AM   #61
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

Is Draymond grabbing someone by the jersey and pulling them down an accident? I know he tries to break his fall after the fact but it’s hard to say that’s an accident. Like I said not sure I would have given a flagrant 2 if I had the whistle but he knew he messed up. It might have been an “accident” for it to cause the fall that it caused, but making that decision wasn’t an accident.
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Old 05-02-2022, 12:32 AM   #62
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by ojandpizza
Is Draymond grabbing someone by the jersey and pulling them down an accident? I know he tries to break his fall after the fact but it’s hard to say that’s an accident. Like I said not sure I would have given a flagrant 2 if I had the whistle but he knew he messed up. It might have been an “accident” for it to cause the fall that it caused, but making that decision wasn’t an accident.
I’d classify it as a bang-bang play with excessive contact, which is why it’d fall in my Flagrant 1 wheelhouse. A guy was about to get a bucket, Draymond wanted to commit a solid playoff foul and he bit off more than he could chew (realizing it before Clarke even hit the ground).

Pretty solid Flagrant 1 territory if context ever mattered. But therein lay the issue. I feel premeditation has a place in these sorts of calls and it was a mistake to remove that concept from the bylaws. This was a dude who got overzealous for a split second and literally everything was fine. I wouldn’t even call it an egregiously dangerous play (Clarke was still mostly ground-bound, there was no clothesline, body slam, punch, or low bridge.)

I guess I just never realized what was wrong with the old system (1 for excessive, 2 for intent or extreme nature). Hadn’t the system been working fine as is? Was there a Bad Boys revival in 2012 that I wasn’t aware of that prompted such a change?

Either way, I don’t think anyone loses if Draymond gets an F1 and stays in the game. No player’s going to walk away from watching that and be like, “Oooo, only an F1 for that… I’ll have to give that a shot myself next game.” The F1 penalty would have been more than enough to fit the crime.
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Old 05-02-2022, 01:08 AM   #63
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

Every flagrant 1 or 2 is from a player getting overzealous in the moment. I get the nobody gains anything from him being tossed but I don’t think that’s the point of tossing someone. It isn’t for gain, but loss for consequence. Nobody is supposed to gain anything.
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Old 05-02-2022, 06:57 AM   #64
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by ojandpizza
Every flagrant 1 or 2 is from a player getting overzealous in the moment. I get the nobody gains anything from him being tossed but I don’t think that’s the point of tossing someone. It isn’t for gain, but loss for consequence. Nobody is supposed to gain anything.
We’re getting a bit granular, which is fine because I think this is a topic that lends itself to nuance, but I generally don’t find that an ejection is always most suitable when a play’s defining characteristic is that of overzealousness (that is to say, being too enthusiastic or eager).

I find plays where a guy accidentally oversteps his bounds, realizes it, and shows immediate contrition have little reason to punish with ejection.

In contrast, a foul like Andrew Bynum’s extends well beyond being overzealous. When premeditation, intent, and maliciousness come into play—particularly when a player is in a very vulnerable position—then I see removal making sense, as a player intending to endanger those around him simply isn’t viable.
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