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Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

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Old 05-02-2022, 07:29 AM   #65
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

I’m all for playoff intensity, but I err on the side of caution when it comes to mid-air contact, especially when it’s completely unnecessary.

If Clark doesn’t get his feet under him, or his foot plants the wrong way, it’s a completely different conversation. Imagine plucking Ja or Curry out of the air like that.

If I could call it a flagrant 1.5 I would…but I’m pretty surprised at the response, like it was a wrap up foul in transition..
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Old 05-02-2022, 10:11 AM   #66
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

If you want to add a Flagrant 3 category for some thing like Bynum's foul where there is ejection and an automatic 1 or 2 game suspension when malicious intent seems clear then that makes sense to me, but Draymond's play still should get him tossed. You can't pull people out of the air, period.
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Old 05-02-2022, 10:28 AM   #67
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfsolo
If you want to add a Flagrant 3 category for some thing like Bynum's foul where there is ejection and an automatic 1 or 2 game suspension when malicious intent seems clear then that makes sense to me, but Draymond's play still should get him tossed. You can't pull people out of the air, period.
I honestly think “out of the air” is nuanced in this case. Huuuge difference between snatching someone who’s mid-flight after taking off on the run and trying to stop someone who’s already at a standstill before they takeoff. Clarke was mostly stationary and inches off the ground (and even then mostly because his legs were bent).

This is clearly an agree-to-disagree situation, as I feel a Flagrant 3 designation is completely unnecessary. If Dray had body checked Ja mid-dunk from behind - easy Flagrant 2. Circumstantial excessive contact though - two free throws, possession, and a flagrant point. It honestly seemed like that system was working just fine as it was. It’s not like we had dudes out here scoffing at the consequences of an F1 prior.
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Old 05-02-2022, 11:20 AM   #68
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

Adding a flagrant 3 would be just overpolicing at this point, especially for a situation that happens once every few months, if that.

Sometimes I wonder if we still let incidents from 20-25 years ago still have us nervous into thinking incidents like that will make a return or are even happening on a semi-frequent basis.
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Old 05-02-2022, 11:32 AM   #69
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

Like I said, I would be fine with this being a flagrant 1, as 24 said if you could just call this a flagrant 1.5 and call it a day that makes sense to me lol.

But in no way is this accidental or something I would call a bang bang play. That's why I'm not jumping on the "tossing him was ridiculous" train. The first foul with the wind up to the face has a good shot at being called a flagrant 1, that's unnecessary contact to the face. Draymond reaching with the other hand to grab and pull down on his jersey, while not dangerous like you mentioned as he's jumping from a stand still, is the excessive part. There was no accident, it wasn't "bang bang" as the original foul had already been committed. It was an attempt to grab and hold because he didn't want to give up the and-1.. Anybody who's played basketball knows there is nothing un-intentional about grabbing and pulling somebody's jersey.

Now did Draymond mean to make him fall, I doubt it, is the whole "thrown to the ground" completely over-exaggerated? Absolutely. But in no way was any action with the 2nd hand after the first foul something I would consider accidental or bang-bang.. He teetered that line and ultimately got hit with the flagrant 2 this time..

Also, part of me just has no sympathy for Draymond and this stuff. He's hitting somebody in the face (or groin) literally every single playoff series. He's eye gouged James Harden (multiple times), Mike Conley, JJ Redick, LeBron, and now Jokic as well. (And those are just the ones I can remember) and numerous other "could be" eye situations because he always goes at faces when it isn't necessary. I don't mind the occasional rough or what some would call "dirty" plays from time to time if they aren't risking injury.. Draymond flirts with those plays often, most of which are just whatever to me. But have zero empathy for somebody who seemingly just finds ways to hit people in the face/eye repeatedly. At some point that **** just isn't accidental, and if this is the time he's tossed so be it because he's gotten away with toss-worthy stuff a hundred other times by now.

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Old 05-02-2022, 11:43 AM   #70
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

Adding a flagrant 3 would be just overpolicing at this point, especially for a situation that happens once every few months, if that.

Sometimes I wonder if we still let incidents from 20-25 years ago still have us nervous into thinking incidents like that will make a return or are even happening on a semi-frequent basis.
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Old 05-02-2022, 11:45 AM   #71
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

This is also one of those situations where we should also remove emotion from it, but that’s just me.
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Old 05-02-2022, 11:46 AM   #72
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Re: Western Conference 2nd Round Discussion Thread

Also this seems to be making the argument that just because worse fouls exist that this one can't also be labeled as excessive and unnecessary as well. Just because knocking some airborne player out from under his feet is more dirty, more dangerous, more likely to cause injury, doesn't mean that this foul doesn't (at least debatably) meet the criteria for a flagrant 2. Both of those things can be true at the same time. This play doesn't need to be malicious in intent or have a high chance of causing injury for it to meet the criteria for the foul to be called.

If Steph Curry drops a player to his feet, steps back and drops a 30ft bomb at the buzzer, and Bruce Bowen just stands in a corner and hits the open 3 after someone else did all the work, both of those shots are still worth 3 points. Doesn't mean they are the same, and also doesn't matter that they aren't.
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