Will Brady and Manning both go down as Top 5 QB's of all-time?

[heitkamp94]

Quote: Originally Posted by Vince

Brady yes...After yesterday's performance, I'm not sure about manning anymore. ..........................

DUH! And you base this on one game...WOW.

[rdawsoniii]

Quote: Originally Posted by lbartlett_32

Opinion is all the criteria. Everyone is just using their own opinion for criteria. What is your criteria? I mean why can't I just say that the game of football has evolved so much that anyone who says a QB that played over twenty five years ago their list would automatically be disqualified. As like you, how are you or I to say who's opinion counts or doesn't.

Exactly....it is all opinion, but I was curious as to what people's criteria was. Mine? I don't have any because I already said there is no way I can pick a Top 5 because there have been too many good QB's over the years. I did state my #1 (Unitas) and gave my reasons why.

As for your comment about disqualifying QB's who played over 25 years ago....if you are talking ALL TIME best you cannot just use players from a set time period. Doing that automatically makes such an "all time" list invalid.

"The Brady haters crack me up. Just look at the man play. He's cool in the pocket, he throws right over the blitz, he's ridiculously accurate and he can throw the long ball. The kid is nice. I don't even know why people dislike him so much, lol. Must be because he's on a Boston team. Still, that shouldn't blind you from the truth. Tom Brady is one of the best quarterbacks to ever make a three step drop. Period."

This quote from bornindamecca just makes me laugh. He acts like no other QB in history was cool in the pocket, threw over a blitz, was accurate or could throw the long ball. Talk about being blinded! Ever hear of Bart "the Cool" Starr? He was a cool customer himself. Could throw long if he had to. Was extremely accurate. He was (is) nice.....and he also didn't go around dipping his wick in every skirt he could find.

Checkmate!

[Moses Shuttlesworth]

Basically, how could you say Brady WON'T be a hall of famer. Look at what he has achieved, ever since he became the 1st string quarterback.

He's made the Patriots a dynasty, and right now arguably the best football team in the history of the NFL.

[ubernoob]

Both will go down as all-time greats.

I'm a homer though, and would take Favre over both of them any day of the week. Why? Because I love watching him play. Everything about him screams that he should not be as good as he is. Horrible form, bad decisions. That's the reason I would take him, he shows a passion for the game.

No doubt there are some top-tier QBs in the game today.

[rdawsoniii]

Quote: Originally Posted by Moses Shuttlesworth

Basically, how could you say Brady WON'T be a hall of famer. Look at what he has achieved, ever since he became the 1st string quarterback. He's made the Patriots a dynasty, and right now arguably the best football team in the history of the NFL.

If you are referring to me....I never said he wasn't a Hall of Famer.

I disagree Brady made the Patriots a dynasty. There are any number of QB's who would have had the same success on that team. So-called "dynasty" teams have personnel (QB's included) who mesh well within the system. Brady fits the Patriots. He would be a disaster at Miami, New York (Jets), St. Louis, etc. Kurt Warner was an MVP in St. Louis, but has struggled elsewhere. Mark Rypien won a SB in Washington, sucked everywhere else. Jim Plunkett had a respectable career at New England, but shined for the Raiders. Trent Dilfer has won a SB for God's sake.

Guys like Starr, Staubach, Bradshaw, Graham and Aikman led "dynasty" teams.....yet they are not listed in most people's Top 5. Why not? How is Brady different than them? Marino is in everyone's Top 3, but he never won a Super Bowl. Why? Because of the records? Favre holds most of them now, has a ring, yet is usually not high on people's list. Tarkenton held the records before Marino, yet he is lucky to make anyone's Top 10. What about Jim Kelly.....4 straight Super Bowls. Not too shabby.

I think there are too many people who put too much emphasis on the here and now. Sure, Brady and Manning are Top 2 in people's eyes because they are playing NOW. Fans have short attention spans and those under 40 know nothing about players prior to 1980.

Give me valid reasons and criteria as to why Brady is Top 5 all-time.....and not just opinions (such as "Tom Brady is one of the best quarterbacks to ever make a three step drop. Period."....oh really? And you know this how????).

[NovaStar]

Quote: Originally Posted by rdawsoniii

If you are referring to me....I never said he wasn't a Hall of Famer. I disagree Brady made the Patriots a dynasty. There are any number of QB's who would have had the same success on that team. So-called "dynasty" teams have personnel (QB's included) who mesh well within the system. Brady fits the Patriots. He would be a disaster at Miami, New York (Jets), St. Louis, etc. Kurt Warner was an MVP in St. Louis, but has struggled elsewhere. Mark Rypien won a SB in Washington, sucked everywhere else. Jim Plunkett had a respectable career at New England, but shined for the Raiders. Trent Dilfer has won a SB for God's sake. Guys like Starr, Staubach, Bradshaw, Graham and Aikman led "dynasty" teams.....yet they are not listed in most people's Top 5. Why not? How is Brady different than them? Marino is in everyone's Top 3, but he never won a Super Bowl. Why? Because of the records? Favre holds most of them now, has a ring, yet is usually not high on people's list. Tarkenton held the records before Marino, yet he is lucky to make anyone's Top 10. What about Jim Kelly.....4 straight Super Bowls. Not too shabby. I think there are too many people who put too much emphasis on the here and now. Sure, Brady and Manning are Top 2 in people's eyes because they are playing NOW. Fans have short attention spans and those under 40 know nothing about players prior to 1980. Give me valid reasons and criteria as to why Brady is Top 5 all-time.....and not just opinions (such as "Tom Brady is one of the best quarterbacks to ever make a three step drop. Period."....oh really? And you know this how????).

Your argument diminishes in the face of facts and stats. Here are Brady's accomplishments prior to 2007:


Brady enters 2007 with a record of 82-26 (.759) in regular-season and playoff games. It is the best record of any NFL quarterback in the Super Bowl Era (since 1966) with at least 40 starts.
Brady enters 2007 with a 12-2 (.857) playoff record, the second best in NFL history behind Bart Starr (9-1, .900).
Brady is the only quarterback in NFL history to start and win three Super Bowls before his 28th birthday, having quarterbacked the Patriots to victories in Super Bowl XXXVI when he was 24 years old, Super Bowl XXXVIII (26) and Super Bowl XXXIX (27).
Brady is the fourth quarterback in NFL history to lead his team to three or more Super Bowl wins, joining Terry Bradshaw (4), Joe Montana (4) and Troy Aikman (3).
Brady owns two Pete Rozelle Awards as Super Bowl MVP (XXXVI and XXXVIII). He is just the fourth player in Super Bowl history to earn multiple MVP awards, joining Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw and Bart Starr, all three of whom are enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
Brady enters 2007 with a 26-5 record in games where the final margin was less than a touchdown, including a 6-1 playoff record and a 3-0 Super Bowl record in such games.
Brady enters the 2007 season having started 108 consecutive regular-season and playoff games for the Patriots, good for the third-longest streak among active NFL quarterbacks (trailing only Brett Favre and Peyton Manning).
Brady enters 2007 as the NFL's all-time leader in overtime wins without a defeat, recording a perfect 7-0 mark in overtime in his career. Terry Bradshaw is the only other quarterback to be undefeated in at least five overtime games, posting a 5-0 record.
Brady enters 2007 as the winningest quarterback in Patriots history in terms of total victories (82) and winning percentage (.759).
Brady enters 2007 as the Patriots' all-time leader in career completion percentage (61.9 percent) and passer rating (88.4). He ranks second in completions (1,896), third in yards (21,564) and third in touchdowns (147).
Brady has orchestrated 24 game-winning drives to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter or overtime. Six of his game-winning efforts have come in the postseason, where he has played in 14 games.
Brady has led a game-winning drive to break a tie or take the lead in the fourth quarter of each of the Patriots' three Super Bowl victories, becoming the only quarterback in NFL history to lead three such gamewinning drives in the Super Bowl.
Brady enters the 2007 season with a career record of 40-8 (.833) in games played on Thanksgiving or later in the NFL season, including a 12-2 playoff mark.
Brady enters the 2007 season with a career record of 21-2 as a starter (.913) in games played in temperatures below 40 degrees.
Brady enters the 2007 season with a career record of 23-2 as a starter (.920) in games played on artificial surfaces.
Brady recorded six passer ratings over 100.0 in 2006. He has recorded 39 ratings over 100.0 in his career, and the Patriots are 38-1 in those games.
Brady tied an NFL record in 2005 by distributing his 26 touchdown passes to 12 different players. The only other NFL player to accomplish the feat was Brad Johnson in 2003.
Brady set a career high in 2004 with a 92.6 passer rating, the second highest rating in Patriots history among players with at least 150 attempts (Tony Eason, 93.4 in 1984).
In 2004, Brady averaged 7.79 yards per pass attempt – more than a full yard higher than his career mark of 6.62 yards per attempt heading into the 2004 season.
Brady tied his career high and ranked second in the AFC with 28 touchdown passes in 2004.
Brady owns the Super Bowl record for pass completions in a game, connecting on 32 passes in Super Bowl XXXVIII.
Brady won his first 10 playoff games, setting an NFL record for the most consecutive playoff wins.
Brady was voted an offensive captain by his teammates in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006.
Brady completed a streak of throwing for at least one touchdown in 15 straight games, including playoffs (12/14/03 - 11/22/04), recording the longest such streak in Patriots history.
Brady led the NFL with 28 touchdown passes in 2002 and became the first Patriot to lead the league in touchdown passes since Steve Grogan shared the lead with Cleveland's Brian Sipe (28) in 1979.
Brady set a franchise single-game record by completing 84.6 percent of his passes (22-26) at Buffalo (11/03/02, min. 20 attempts).
Brady threw at least two touchdown passes in each of the first five games of the 2002 season, the first Patriot to accomplish that feat and the first Patriot to throw for at least two touchdowns in five straight games in a single season since Butch Songin (10/23/60-11/18/60).
Brady (24 years, 184 days old) was voted MVP of Super Bowl XXXVI and was the third-youngest player to earn the honor (Marcus Allen, 23 years and 301 days at Super Bowl XVIII and Lynn Swann, 23 years, 316 days at Super Bowl X).
Brady was voted to the 2001 Pro Bowl and became just the second Patriots quarterback to receive the honor (Drew Bledsoe, 1994, 1996 and 1997). He also became just the fifth quarterback since 1970 to be voted to the Pro Bowl in his first year as a starter, joining Dan Marino (1983), Brett Favre (1992), Kurt Warner (1999) and Daunte Culpepper (2000).
Brady threw for 53 yards on the Patriots' game-winning drive in Super Bowl XXXVI, completing five of his eight passes. Two of his pass attempts were spiked to kill the game clock. With just 1:21 remaining, he moved the Patriots into field goal position without the benefit of timeouts.
Brady completed over 70 percent of his passes in four consecutive games during the 2001 season and joined an exclusive club of quarterbacks who accomplished the feat. He joined Joe Montana (8 games, 1989), Troy Aikman (4, 1995), Steve Young (4, 1993) and Sammy Baugh (4, 1945).
Brady completed the first 162 passes of his career without an interception. It was the longest streak to start a career in NFL history and ranks third for most attempts without an interception in Patriots franchise history.


What was your point again?

[rdawsoniii]

In love with Brady are we?

Tell me how many Super Bowl wins would he have if he quarterbacked the Dolphins? The Redskins? Oakland? Jets? Lions? Texans?

He is a good QB. I never said he wasn't. He is thriving in the Patriots system (always had a great OL which gives him all kinds of time to throw). I'd love to see how well he does if he is running for his life on every play.

But that is good for him. He's lucky to be playing for the team he's playing for, and not a team like St. Louis.

He is not a Top 5 all time QB.

[NovaStar]

Quote: Originally Posted by rdawsoniii

In love with Brady are we? Tell me how many Super Bowl wins would he have if he quarterbacked the Dolphins? The Redskins? Oakland? Jets? Lions? Texans? He is a good QB. I never said he wasn't. He is thriving in the Patriots system (always had a great OL which gives him all kinds of time to throw). I'd love to see how well he does if he is running for his life on every play. But that is good for him. He's lucky to be playing for the team he's playing for, and not a team like St. Louis. He is not a Top 5 all time QB.

No. You asked for stats and you got them. Your point is rather puzzling. Any qb that plays football (professional or non professional)plays in a system. The ultimate measure of a NFL qb is, can you, with the system you employ, get your team to the SB and win it. The ultimate measure of the legends and or great ones is how many times you win it. Peyton has a system, Marino had a sytem, Montana had a system, Starr had a system, and so on and so forth. You seem to hold the very thing that every qb had/has (a system) both great and not so great, against Brady. It like saying the only reason Brady is alive is because he breaths(equivalent of a system in football). Well guess what, every one that lives breaths. Every qb has/had a system.

How many SB's he would have had if he played with the Dolphins etc...is like asking how many rings Michael Jordan would have had if he played with the nets, or how many Montana would have had if he played with Tampa Bay. It is totally irrelevant to anything. The question is how many does he have with the team he plays with. That is what is relevant. The outcome of any other proposed condition or alternate reality would lead one to conjecture and pure speculation, you don't prove points with either of those. You prove points with what you asked for above, factual information, reasonable analysis and stats. You now have those. If you choose not to apply what you were provided with to your analysis of Brady, that is up to you. But understand if you don't, your opinion dwells in the land of speculation and conjecture, that is like trying to stand on the planet Saturn, you can't, it is all gas there is nothing solid to stand on.