Dan Marino, not John Elway, is the Comeback King

[TheWatcher]

The fact is that the QB makes a difference, even caretaker QB's because they do what they're expected where the guy before him couldn't get it done. Not that Brady is a caretaker in any way, but our most recent best showing of the difference is the difference between what Drew Bledsoe did with the Patriots and what Tom Brady did with the exact same team that Bledsoe couldn't win with anymore.

The 49ers were terrible and going nowhere before Montana. It's no coincidence that with him they became a dynasty, and that all started before Rice, Craig, Taylor, Rathman or Jones ever got drafted.

I don't say that Montana or Elway are better than Marino based on rings. I say they were better for other reasons unrelated to winning championships. And if you'd asked me who was better between Marino and Elway before Elway got a single ring, I still would've said Elway and often did without blinking an eye.

I don't think the debates are pointless at all. Sportstalk is mostly speculation, without it we'd have nothing to talk about. The last measure that can be concretely decided on are numbers, and just like personal feeling they don't tell the whole story. So after that I look beyond my own opinion and look to consensus. Most people believe Montana is the best, that's basically his life title that's never failed to be mentioned everywhere he goes (I even saw it on a national seminar card "Greatest QB in NFL history", lol). That thought shifted a bit after Elway won his rings and went out in the magical way that he did. But I've never heard any consensus that Marino was the best, just that he was the most prolific, which he was, until Brett Favre eclipsed him. Besides Dolphins fans and a few people here and there, he doesnt have much backing for GOAT status.

I just remember Marino not showing up when it counted in big games way too many times. Should've been able to figure out the Bills at some point but just couldn't get it together when it mattered. A couple of AFC Championship games where he didn't perform at his best and made poor decisions at the worst possible times, among other disastrous playoff gems he laid just make it impossible for me to look at him as the best. Quite frankly, he just didn't play well in a lot of those games. We can blame it on the running game all day, but let's be real, he was successful winning ball games for practically his entire career without a strong one, so we're going to blame what the 18 playoffs games (10 of which he lost) on that out of the 260 games he played, where he won more than 150 of them? Nope, can't buy that. And let's not forget the rumblings that he usurped Shula's authority and wanted to run a pass-balanced offense.

I never cared for his it's-never-my-fault attitude. That was unacceptable to me. That's not leadership. I never heard Montana speak like that, but Marino would blame everybody plus the peanut vendor for why he threw 4 INT's.

Comebacks and last second/OT wins do matter and they are a good measure since only the great QB's have the highest amount. That says something that doesn't even have to be defined; it defines itself. Without them Pro Football would not be what it is today. Take away Unitas's drive to win the NFL Title in '58, and where would the league be today? Probably still second fiddle to Baseball.

[CW McGraw]

Montana wasn't the only reason for the Niners success. Bill Walsh was probably the greatest evaluator of talent ever and easily the greatest offensive innovator other than Sid Gillman. Montana had arguably the greatest DB of all time in Ronnie Lott leading his defense. The fact is that for the majority of his career, Marino was the only great player on his team. If your team has only one great player that is expected to carry your team, you will not win many SBs.

The way I see it is that Marino was just terribly unlucky to play when he did. He had some weak playoff performances when he had his best teams early on and when he finally got over the playoff jitters, the greatest team to never win a SB took over the conference. If Marino were born ten years earlier or ten years later, he'd have won a SB, but he was just unlucky enough to have his prime as an individual coincide with the rise of some of the greatest teams ever. Then Joe Robbie died and Wayne Huizenga took the team over and drove us into the ground.

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We can blame it on the running game all day, but let's be real, he was successful winning ball games for practically his entire career without a strong one, so we're going to blame what the 18 playoffs games (10 of which he lost) on that out of the 260 games he played, where he won more than 150 of them? Nope, can't buy that.

It's easy to win 150 games in the regular season where you aren't playing the best teams in the league all the time. The playoffs separate the good teams from the great ones and, frankly, the Fins were rarely a great team under Marino because of a horrendously unbalanced style of offense.

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I never cared for his it's-never-my-fault attitude. That was unacceptable to me. That's not leadership. I never heard Montana speak like that, but Marino would blame everybody plus the peanut vendor for why he threw 4 INT's.

It's easy to seem like a great leader when you're always successful. Montana never played on a team that was nearly as bad as Marino's worse. You learn more about the true character of a man in defeat than in victory.

[MattieShoes]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

The 49ers were terrible and going nowhere before Montana. It's no coincidence that with him they became a dynasty, and that all started before Rice, Craig, Taylor, Rathman or Jones ever got drafted.

They were terrible and going nowhere before Ronnie Lott and Eric Wright in 1981. Their pass defense jumped from bottom-5 to top-5 the year they got those two. Montana had been around a couple years before that. I think Montana walks on water but really, name a dynasty with a bad defense. Their dynasty-years defenses were usually so great that several QBs could have done just fine there, though perhaps not as good as Montana. I think there were a few poor years in the Young era...

4th quarter heroics is exciting but most of the time, they fail no matter WHO is QB. The way to win games is to have the lead going into the 4th quarter. Dan leads this statistic because he played on more mediocre teams than just about anybody, so he's had the most opportunity.

[J.R. Locke]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

I never cared for his it's-never-my-fault attitude. That was unacceptable to me. That's not leadership. I never heard Montana speak like that, but Marino would blame everybody plus the peanut vendor for why he threw 4 INT's.

I will take Dan Marino's demeanor, leadership and personality over John Elway.

Elway forced a trade before he even played a game. He stunk in his 2nd and 3rd super bowls. He was carried by a great offensive line and running game in his two ring years.

As players they are both equally great. But I have never like Elway.

[MattieShoes]

Quote: Originally Posted by J.R. Locke

I will take Dan Marino's demeanor, leadership and personality over John Elway. Elway forced a trade before he even played a game. He stunk in his 2nd and 3rd super bowls. He was carried by a great offensive line and running game in his two ring years. As players they are both equally great. But I have never like Elway.

Elway's SB record is abysmal -- passer rating in the 50s, only 3 TD passes in 4 games, 8 interceptions...

But in general I think the postseason is highly overrated here. The better team typically wins regardless of the quarterback. If you're a wildcard team going against a great opponent who doesn't self destruct, odds are you're going to be trailing and you're going to have to throw it into pass coverage against a team that almost certainly has a great pass defense, which means you'll almost certainly throw interceptions. It's to be expected no matter who you are. If you've got an unbalanced offense (like Marino's and Manning's), then these are the teams that can exploit that. If Aikman or Montana went down, the Cowboys and 49ers were still playoff-caliber teams. Take Marino away and the Dolphins would be lucky to have a winning season.

[deaduck]

It was clear to a casual observer that they weren't trying to build a team around Marino as much as just ride the poor bastard until he quit on them.

This is not so much the case in the conversation of other great QBs.

Marino did more with less. Like Barry Saunders.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by CW McGraw

Montana wasn't the only reason for the Niners success.

I'm not saying he was. But the QB is usually the catalyst. It's been proven time and time again. Most of the players on that '81 squad were there before Montana came and before he became the solidified starter, but they weren't winning.

Quote: Originally Posted by CW McGraw

Bill Walsh was probably the greatest evaluator of talent ever and easily the greatest offensive innovator other than Sid Gillman.

Agreed.

Quote: Originally Posted by CW McGraw

Montana had arguably the greatest DB of all time in Ronnie Lott leading his defense.

But QB's don't throw passes to their defensive players.

I don't think anyone counts the Niners defense as an all-time great defense. They were decent, some years really good. But they are nowhere close to Steel Curtain or Doomsday status.

Lott was their greatest defensive player. Haley was a great player that should be in the hall, but most of his legacy was built after Montana had already won a few rings without him.

Quote: Originally Posted by CW McGraw

The fact is that for the majority of his career, Marino was the only great player on his team. If your team has only one great player that is expected to carry your team, you will not win many SBs.

He had Duper and Clayton starting from 1982 to 1993 (Duper and Clayton passed each other by a year coming in and retiring). They were a heckuva duo. It's very rare to have two nasty receivers like that.

Quote: Originally Posted by CW McGraw

The way I see it is that Marino was just terribly unlucky to play when he did. He had some weak playoff performances when he had his best teams early on and when he finally got over the playoff jitters, the greatest team to never win a SB took over the conference. If Marino were born ten years earlier or ten years later, he'd have won a SB, but he was just unlucky enough to have his prime as an individual coincide with the rise of some of the greatest teams ever. Then Joe Robbie died and Wayne Huizenga took the team over and drove us into the ground.

Well, a lot of great QB's have a nemesis team but they usually get over the hump eventually. Took Steve Young a number of tries but he eventually got the Cowboys. Peyton Manning finally got the Patriots and the Colts running game wasn't anything special.

Marino was still having some bad postseasons late in his career. Let's not forget the 62-7 career-ending massacre at the hands of the Jaguars, lol.

Quote: Originally Posted by CW McGraw

It's easy to win 150 games in the regular season where you aren't playing the best teams in the league all the time.

He played the Bills twice a year though, plus playoff games.

And the Bills defenses weren't great. Their secondary was always suspect. Why couldn't Marino figure them out? Lots of other teams with lesser QB's had big days against that secondary, albeit mostly in losses.

Quote: Originally Posted by CW McGraw

It's easy to seem like a great leader when you're always successful. Montana never played on a team that was nearly as bad as Marino's worse.

What about the '79 team that went 2-14? Or the '80 team that went 6-10? Those teams were bad.

Montana wasn't much of a vocal leader. That wasn't his style. He led by just going out there and getting it done. He was a leader by example.

Quote: Originally Posted by CW McGraw

You learn more about the true character of a man in defeat than in victory.

So let's talk Montana again... Montana got benched in the '87 Divisional playoffs for a terrible performance against the Vikings. The whole world thought Joe Montana was going to be traded. He didn't cry in the media. He didn't go out and point fingers. He said look, I played poorly, but it won't happen again. And it didn't. The very next year, he took a 10-6 Niner team all the way to the Super Bowl and pulled off that 92-yard drive to beat the Bengals. That '87 defeat taught me all I needed to know about Joe.

Thing is, when Marino blew a game he just blamed everybody else. That was the kinda guy he was. It was never his fault. That disgusted me about him. Loved him as a player, but I can never look past that behavior.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by MattieShoes

They were terrible and going nowhere before Ronnie Lott and Eric Wright in 1981. Their pass defense jumped from bottom-5 to top-5 the year they got those two. Montana had been around a couple years before that. I think Montana walks on water but really, name a dynasty with a bad defense. Their dynasty-years defenses were usually so great that several QBs could have done just fine there, though perhaps not as good as Montana. I think there were a few poor years in the Young era...

I think the word "great" is used too heavily there. Statistically speaking, they had a number of strong years. But stats don't tell the whole story. I think we seen a number of games where the defense gave up a TD or a FG at the wrong time forcing Montana into a comeback situation. The 49ers defense, I never looked at them as closers. When I think of the Steel Curtain, I think of a defense that usually wound up closing the door at the end of games. Bradshaw wasn't a comeback guy, so if they didn't make the stop they were probably going to lose.

And Eric Wright I wouldn't count as a great player. He had a couple strong years, but I wouldn't say he was great.

Quote: Originally Posted by MattieShoes

4th quarter heroics is exciting but most of the time, they fail no matter WHO is QB. The way to win games is to have the lead going into the 4th quarter. Dan leads this statistic because he played on more mediocre teams than just about anybody, so he's had the most opportunity.

Montana had 31, and the 49ers had few mediocre squads during their dynasty era.

Pro Football Reference challenged the comeback stats with this current list:

Reported is the first number, Actual is the second number (in bold):

John Elway 47 34
Brett Favre 42 27
Dan Marino 37 36
Peyton Manning 37 28
Drew Bledsoe 32 24
Joe Montana 31 31
Johnny Unitas 31 34
Tom Brady 28 20
Roger Staubach 23 15
Ben Roethlisberger 19 15
Chad Pennington 7 7
Jay Cutler 7 5