Franchise Player?

[lonewolf371]

Quote: Originally Posted by mKoz26

What would you say to this list, lonewolf? Top 5 QBs Kerry Collins Eli Manning Ben Roethlisberger Jake Delhomme Peyton Manning In order. Fair?

I'd say that I disagree, and ask you why you felt that way, hoping to learn something new from someone else's opinion.

[steelcurtain311]

Quote:

It's not like those great offenses have done much before and after Warner. Warner sucked in NY because, like mah quotabak Chad Pennington, he's struggled to stay healthy. It's why Mike Martz ran him out of St. Louis. Plus with the first overall pick sitting behind him in NY, they'd be looking for any excuse to bench him. I just don't know how you can keep a guy who took the worst franchise in NFL history to a SB out of the top five.

Man, in St Louis he had Holt, Bruce, Faulk, Pace, all in their primes. That's just absurd. It's not like that offense died after Warner left. Bulger stepped in and they were fine. They weren't "greatest show on turf" kind of good, but there were a lot of factors in on that, aside from Warner leaving. As a team in general, the main reason they dropped off is because their defense dropped off the face of the planet. When Warner was there, they had a very good defense.

Warner was awful in NY when he was healthy, downright awful.

If Matt Leinart actually acted like he cared, and played up to his talent, Warner probably wouldn't even be there. I refuse to believe he can't put up similar numbers to Warner with that offensive talent around him. Larry Fitz's numbers have been great regardless of who's thrown to him since he's been in the league, btw. It's not like Warner made him break out or something. The Cardinals just haven't had a team until now.

Quote:

Or putting a rookie above him for that matter.

I'm absolutely not doing that. Warner's still a top 10 QB, still a good QB. I'm just not on this boat that thinks he's an elite QB. The fact of the matter is that the guy has only played "elite" when he's had ridiculous offensive talent around him.

[JaBronie247]

Quote: Originally Posted by mKoz26

What would you say to this list, lonewolf? Top 5 QBs Kerry Collins Eli Manning Ben Roethlisberger Jake Delhomme Peyton Manning In order. Fair?

Your forgetting Travaris Jackson and what about Daunte Caulpepper? he is a BEAST!

[steelcurtain311]

Quote: Originally Posted by JaBronie247

IMO I don't think Roethlisberger is a good QB for last year he threw 15 Int's an 17 Touchdowns! that isn't good! also I think there Defense carries there team too much!

Most of his INT's last year came when he was playing hurt. As a matter of fact, every bad span of his career when it comes to INT's has been due to playing when he shouldn't have been. You can always tell when it's bad enough to affect his play and when it isn't, and examples last year would be the Colts and Giants games for him. He didn't look right in either game.

Stats mean **** when it comes to a guy like Ben, because he's not in to putting up stats. He will when he has to, but he wants to win games. Which means handing it off sometimes instead of trying to force throws. Plus factor in that he plays behind one of the worst lines in football. Lets see how good Peyton or Brees TD/INT numbers are playing with Willie Colon as a starter.

[ProfessaPackMan]

I still can't believe that man said Matt Ryan is a top 5 QB based on just MAKING the playoffs despite the fact that he had a very, very average season.

[CW McGraw]

Quote: Originally Posted by steelcurtain311

Most of his INT's last year came when he was playing hurt. As a matter of fact, every bad span of his career when it comes to INT's has been due to playing when he shouldn't have been. You can always tell when it's bad enough to affect his play and when it isn't, and examples last year would be the Colts and Giants games for him. He didn't look right in either game. Stats mean **** when it comes to a guy like Ben, because he's not in to putting up stats. He will when he has to, but he wants to win games. Which means handing it off sometimes instead of trying to force throws. Plus factor in that he plays behind one of the worst lines in football. Lets see how good Peyton or Brees TD/INT numbers are playing with Willie Colon as a starter.

In fairness to the Steelers atrocious offensive line, Ben holding onto the ball for as long as he does in attempt to make plays certainly doesn't help. Great QBs make their talent look better than they actually are. It's what seperates Tom Brady from Matt Cassell. Cassell was getting sacked every other play behind the same line that the year before helped set records. Ben's a top five QB and has a good chance at making the HOF if he doesn't get killed in five years, but he shares some of the blame for him constantly getting sacked.

[steelcurtain311]

I know he does, but people seriously exaggerate that. The majority of his sacks are happening because there's people in his face instantly. On a lot of plays he's got pressure from all sides before he can even get set. There isn't a single good talent on his line. I don't want to hear a Peyton or Brady would make them better, because they wouldn't. They'd just take a beating, the same way, if not worse than Ben. Both of them have had guys that are at least capable of being good-great linemen, right now, Ben does not.

Could he get the ball out faster on some plays? Yeah, but that's probably going to lead to more INT's. Bruce Arians really sucks, it's partly on him too.

[JaBronie247]

Would you guys start a Franchise with a veteran player? or do you just want a young guy that can stay longer?