top 5 QB's of all time

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by z Revis

I told you my point in that post. lol. Most people on OS probably didn't see them play. My dad was born in the 60's, he 'saw' some of those guys play, but probably didn't even care about football back then or even understand it because he was too young. Most people don't get into football and truly understand the greatness of the game and some players until they're what..? like in their teens? Even if you saw them, I bet you were probably too young to really understand things or even grasp how great those guys were. And I'm talking about Van Brocklin, Tittle, Luckman, etc. You'd have to be around 50 years old and I don't think there's many people on OS that are around that age. If your son is 20 years old, then yes I am as young as him. lol.

Originally, you had Tarkenton and Jurgensen in your post too.

Just because your dad wasn't into football doesn't mean other people weren't into it back then. I can clearly remember all of those I listed and how they played and how great they were.

Maybe your dad wasn't into as much as I was, then.

[CW McGraw]

Quote: Originally Posted by Scottdau

The man could break a piece of a bar soap with his hands! I would say that is pretty damn impressing!

Bert Jones really was one of the best passers of all time. In terms of pure physical ability, he was as good as Marino. I've seen clips of him throwing a 40 yard bullet right to his receiver's hands in the middle of a blizzard.

[ANDROMADA 1]

Quote: Originally Posted by Freelance

Good lists here. I see several that list Aikman over Staubach. Remember that Staubach's military commitments kept him from turning pro until he was 27, and Landry made him watch for a while, too. Had he come out at 22, his career would have been even more special. I think you take Montana, Unitas, Elway, Staubach, Manning, and Farve, and put them in whatever order you want. I'm not a fan of Marino, who wasn't a leader in my mind as much as a stats hound (he argued against running the ball with coaches). I think Fouts, Aikman, Bradshaw, Young, Tarkenton, Brady, Graham, Starr, etc, fall in the next tier.

Well five just aint long enough of a list IMO, Staubach would be qb #6 in no order

[hipster.doofus7]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

But Davis was also averaging less than 17 carries per game at the time (this is a fact). I don't know too many backs that put up great numbers averaging 16 or so carries a game in the Pros.

I wasn't questioning Davis's stats. I was questioning the Broncos' ability to win without Elway. Incidentally, the reason Davis stats in 1999 were subpar was because the team was playing from behind a lot. They weren't competitive in those games.

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

None of that means Davis got "exposed".

I never said Terrell Davis was "exposed". I said the Denver Broncos Team were exposed. There was a perception back then that the Denver Broncos were essentially Terrell Davis's Superbowl team... and that the aging Elway was simply playing bus driver for an incredible 2000-yard rusher. And on the surface, it did look like that. Especially since Elway was more than content to step aside and let the running game do the talking.

But as soon as Elway stepped aside in 1999, the whole team fell apart like a house of cards. An intact, healthy roster that was just 8 months removed from back-to-back Superbowl titles suddenly go 0-4 without him. That's what I call getting exposed.

It became obvious then that people severely underestimated Elway's role in the team. He wasn't some kind of bus driver. IMHO, Elway was the most important player on those superbowl teams.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by hipster.doofus7

I wasn't questioning Davis's stats. I was questioning the Broncos' ability to win without Elway. Incidentally, the reason Davis stats in 1999 were subpar was because the team was playing from behind a lot. They weren't competitive in those games.

I rest my case.

Quote: Originally Posted by hipster.doofus7

I never said Terrell Davis was "exposed".

But indeed you did, and you went so far as to itemize him by name:

Quote: Originally Posted by hipster.doofus7

But as soon as the Elway retired, Shanahan, Davis & the Broncos were exposed.

Had you only said "the Broncos were exposed" as you're saying now, it would've been different. It might've been what you meant, I don't know, it's just not what you said.

Quote: Originally Posted by hipster.doofus7

It became obvious then that people severely underestimated Elway's role in the team. He wasn't some kind of bus driver. IMHO, Elway was the most important player on those superbowl teams.

I don't know about underestimating... I think people understood fully well that John Elway was a great player, a HOF player. But the fact still remained that before Davis, Elway wasn't winning championships. And when you have a back running like Davis was running, it just doesn't put as much pressure on your QB. It's not minimizing Elway at all, it's just being realistic about what actually happened. I think we all know that if Davis didn't show up it's pretty much a lock that Elway retires with no rings.

I'd say that Elway was the most important player on the first 3 Super Bowls, and he lost them all. So even if I were to agree that he was the most important player on the last two, that still doesn't mean he would've gotten those two rings without Davis.

Also, the same defense can be made for Shanahan. Elway went to 3 Super Bowls with Dan Reeves and never won. Shanahan put together a better play scheme, hired a strong staff and assembled a more talented team to support Elway that Reeves never did. He had some rough goings at the end, but he was a very successful Head Coach overall. I know people expected him to find another QB and continue the same success but that's hard to do if not almost impossible. The only guy I can think of off the top of my head that did that was Weeb Ewbank who won title's with Unitas and then won one with Namath. I don't see Shanahan as a failure at all, I just see a guy who had the typical bad period at the end rather than at the beginning.

[Bellsprout]

1- Montana (Never out of a game with him behind center, won Super Bowls, just awesome)
2- Otto Graham (That winning % is ridiculous)
3- Elway (So great for so long. And as was mentioned before led his team to 5 Super Bowls, winning 2 of them at the end of his career, which I find very impressive.)
4- Favre (Every record in the book. Won a Super Bowl. Can't ask much more.)
5- Brady (3 Super Bowl championships and the best season anybody has ever had at the position gets him here. 16-0 helps too, even if they did lose that Super Bowl)

[CW McGraw]

I feel dirty quoting stuff from Cold Hard Football Facts.

Quote:

5. John Elway (1983-98) It’s almost sacrilege to criticize the great Denver quarterback. But, naturally, the Cold, Hard Football Facts are not above skewering pigskin dogma, and then munching on the roasted carcass, as if it were an Oktoberfest steckerlfische. Elway was a great quarterback, as we noted last week in our look at all-time passer rating leaders. He won a lot of games, he lifted an ordinary organization to its greatest heights, he boasts two rings and he produced several amazing comebacks. But he earns his way on the overrated list because he was never – let us be very clear about this, Elway was NEVER – a great passer. And passing being one of the primary responsibilities of a quarterback, it makes Elway an obvious name to include on this list. The truth is that Elway was downright mediocre his first 10 years in the league and it was not until 1993 – his 11th year in the NFL – that he had anything that approximated a breakout season. If not for the fact that Elway was a No. 1 draft pick and, thus, entered the league with a boatload of hype that earned him the benefit of the doubt, he never would have lasted very long as a starter in the NFL given the mediocrity of his performances in those first 10 years. It wasn't until Elway was in his 11th NFL campaign of 1993 that he ever surpassed 22 TD passes in a season (about eight games of work for Tom Brady or Peyton Manning in a good year). And even after that, Elway never passed for more than 27 TD passes in his 16-year career. Think about that for a moment ... after all, according to ProFootballReference.com, quarterbacks have passed for 28 TDs or more in a season 99 times in history. Yet the name "John Elway" is nowhere among that Top 99. Yes, he threw for 300 TD passes in his career, fifth all time. But he averaged 18.75 TD passes per year, while tossing 226 picks (14.13 per year). That 19-14 average TD:INT ratio is far below the general 2 to 1 ratio that sets apart great Live Ball Era passers from ordinary passers. And save for that breakout 1993 campaign, when Elway lead the league in completions (348) and yards (4,030), he never – again we repeat, Elway NEVER – led the league in any major passing categories (completions, yards, TDs, passer rating). As we said before, Elway deserves to be considered a great quarterback and deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. But go back and look at the Cold, Hard Football Facts and you’ll find a guy whose production never matched his reputation. What you will find is a guy who stands at No. 44 on the all-time passer rating list (79.86), just one spot ahead of his clearly not-HOF-caliber mate from the famous QB Class of 1983, Tony Eason (79.72). You’ll also find someone who produced three of the most dismal performances in Super Bowl history. There are those sad, sorry souls – devoid as they are of the Cold, Hard Football Facts – who believe Elway is one of the Top Five quarterbacks in history. Athlon Sports, in its new 2008 pro football annual, named Elway the second best quarterback of the Super Bowl Era, behind only Joe Montana. But he’s not even close, folks. No way. No how. Sorry Athlon. Sorry Denver. Put aside the reputation, look only at the Cold, Hard Football Facts, and check yourself before your wreck yourself.

I can't lie. Every other Great QB managed to get a good mixture of numbers and wins. Elway simply never had elite numbers. Granted he never had elite weapons, but neither did Tom Brady until 07.

[TheWatcher]

They can pull out all the stats they want, but calling him overrated is ridiculous. I could see if they were talking about Joe Namath, then they'd have a strong argument concerning statistics. But Elway's stats were really good, and you can't look at averages alone. You have to look at each season individually, and you also have to think contextually which I don't believe they did at all.

No one ever said Elway was a big numbers guy. Elway was a winner (did they consider that stat?) and Elway was a clutch player (did they forget all of his comeback drives?). Sometimes he won ugly, but he won in the end. And even after all of that, he still retired with great numbers.