top 5 QB's of all time

[CW McGraw]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

They can pull out all the stats they want, but calling him overrated is ridiculous. I could see if they were talking about Joe Namath, then they'd have a strong argument concerning statistics. But Elway's stats were really good, and you can't look at averages alone. You have to look at each season individually, and you also have to think contextually which I don't believe they did at all. No one ever said Elway was a big numbers guy. Elway was a winner (did they consider that stat?) and Elway was a clutch player (did they forget all of his comeback drives?). Sometimes he won ugly, but he won in the end. And even after all of that, he still retired with great numbers.

Elway's efficiency and single season stats were never that good. CHFF tends to undervalue upon gaudy career numbers, which is why they hate Warren Moon. They value wins and postseason success greatly, hence why Marino isn't in their top 10 best QBs ever, but wins aren't enough to make a guy the best ever. While I don't like CHFF much personally, I appreciate their consistency. Marino wasn't top 10 because he had stats but little postseason success.

Also, Dan Marino actually has more fourth quarter comebacks than John Elway. The Broncos standards for what constitutes a fourth quarter comeback were much more liberal than the Dolphins'. Read this.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/nflnation...back-King.html

[TheWatcher]

I don't think Elway is the best ever, but words like overrated being attached to Elway is craziness.

Also, I'm aware that Marino had more comebacks. Thing is, a lot of people don't remember most of them since he failed to pull those off on the biggest stages on a consistent basis. When you think comebacks with Elway and Montana you easily remember playoff situations or Division Title/Conference title clinching situations or big drives in the Super Bowl... or we-need-this-win-to-make-the-playoffs situations.

With Marino, it's a lot of Week 2's against the Saints or something, lol. People just don't care about those.

The best 4th Quarter Comeback standard I've ever seen was the one written by Pro Football Reference. They really put some serious thought into it.

[Kelverin]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

They can pull out all the stats they want

Stats never tell the whole story, this is not baseball. Thats why watching games is so critical and hard to judge the old players without seeing them play, and the various rule changes, number of games per season, blah, blah,......

[bkrich83]

I hate the Broncos with a passion, but anyone calling John Elway overrated should have their football watching card revoked, or they never saw him play, particularly in the mid to late 80's.

Best QB I have ever seen bar none.

[CW McGraw]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

I don't think Elway is the best ever, but words like overrated being attached to Elway is craziness. Also, I'm aware that Marino had more comebacks. Thing is, a lot of people don't remember most of them since he failed to pull those off on the biggest stages on a consistent basis. When you think comebacks with Elway and Montana you easily remember playoff situations or Division Title/Conference title clinching situations or big drives in the Super Bowl... or we-need-this-win-to-make-the-playoffs situations. With Marino, it's a lot of Week 2's against the Saints or something, lol. People just don't care about those. The best 4th Quarter Comeback standard I've ever seen was the one written by Pro Football Reference. They really put some serious thought into it.

I think overrated isn't necessarily an insult. If I bring you to a pizza place and say they serve the greatest pizza the world will ever see, I'm setting pretty lofty standards. Even if that's the best pizza you've ever had, I'd still have overrated that pie because I created an insurmountable amount of myth around it. That's still a damn good slice of pizza, but it'd be fair to say I overrated it. The same thing has happened to Elway. The amount of legend surrounding the guy can't possibly be validated by any deeds short of a decade's worth of Super Bowl rings and two gazillion (firefox spell check says "gazillion" is a word?) fourth quarter comebacks. Elway's still amazing and arguably the best ever, (Though I certainly can't argue it.) but the perception simply doesn't sync up with the reality.

I've said it a couple times, but I'll say it again. I forgive Elway's mediocre passing stats because he had a crap group of weapons. I think he could've put up Marino caliber numbers if he played on the Dolphins. I also think Marino could've taken the Broncos to a few Super Bowls, but that's another battle for another day.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by CW McGraw

I think overrated isn't necessarily an insult. If I bring you to a pizza place and say they serve the greatest pizza the world will ever see, I'm setting pretty lofty standards. Even if that's the best pizza you've ever had, I'd still have overrated that pie because I created an insurmountable amount of myth around it. That's still a damn good slice of pizza, but it'd be fair to say I overrated it. The same thing has happened to Elway. The amount of legend surrounding the guy can't possibly be validated by any deeds short of a decade's worth of Super Bowl rings and two gazillion (firefox spell check says "gazillion" is a word?) fourth quarter comebacks. Elway's still amazing and arguably the best ever, (Though I certainly can't argue it.) but the perception simply doesn't sync up with the reality.

Well, I agree because as I've said I don't think he was the best ever. But the term "overrated" in sports carries a bad connotation.

I think when people say overrated it has to be relative to something/someone. My question is, John Elway is overrated relative to whom? When everything is considered, he still sits among the top QB's of all time in everything that we consider important. If someone says he's the best ever, then maybe I can see the tag overrated being used at that point, but even still it doesn't sit well with me just because of how great he was, and the fact that he was great enough to at least be in the argument.

Quote: Originally Posted by CW McGraw

I've said it a couple times, but I'll say it again. I forgive Elway's mediocre passing stats because he had a crap group of weapons. I think he could've put up Marino caliber numbers if he played on the Dolphins. I also think Marino could've taken the Broncos to a few Super Bowls, but that's another battle for another day.

I'll agree with that with Davis. Pre-Davis, I say no.

[shnuskis]

I don't think Elway is the best ever. He was never the best at his position when he was playing. In the 80's Montana and Marino were better. In the 90's Young and Favre were better. Elway was awesome no question. And he was fun to watch. But all the other QB's mentioned did a better job of getting the ball into their receivers hands. In the 80's people didn't argue he was the best qb in the league. He didn't complete enough passes. Heck, look at his numbers in the 80's. They look like Mike Vick's only with more attempts. In the 90's there is no question, Favre and Young were better than him. Just look at the MVP list where those two won 5.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by shnuskis

I don't think Elway is the best ever. He was never the best at his position when he was playing. In the 80's Montana and Marino were better. In the 90's Young and Favre were better. Elway was awesome no question. And he was fun to watch. But all the other QB's mentioned did a better job of getting the ball into their receivers hands. In the 80's people didn't argue he was the best qb in the league. He didn't complete enough passes. Heck, look at his numbers in the 80's. They look like Mike Vick's only with more attempts. In the 90's there is no question, Favre and Young were better than him. Just look at the MVP list where those two won 5.

Montana, Marino and Young all had far better targets to throw to. In most of those years until Davis showed up, Elway really was the Broncos only real offensive standout. Elway had to win with guys at WR that were arguably worse than what Brady was winning with prior to 2007.