Great article about Manning and co. from last year

[Alliball]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

I find it absurd that either of you would say this considering how many of you guys say that it would be "unsafe" for today's QBs to play under the old rules. Over and over again I keep hearing that putting these QBs on even footing with today's bigger and faster defenders would get them injured. That's YOUR side talking. So which is it? Either they'd be just fine because of their "skills" or they'd get killed because today's defenders are so much better than they were 30 years ago. Make up your minds people, you can't have it both ways.

I could give two craps what rules they play under. But when you say a guy like Manning would "fail miserably" is a gross overstatement at best and pretty laughable.

This discussion is pretty fruitless as is most of the ones you're involved in because you dig in your heals so deep and refuse to even see anyone else's opinion as remotely valid.

[shotgun styles]

Quote: Originally Posted by Alliball

I could give two craps what rules they play under. But when you say a guy like Manning would "fail miserably" is a gross overstatement at best and pretty laughable. This discussion is pretty fruitless as is most of the ones you're involved in because you dig in your heals so deep and refuse to even see anyone else's opinion as remotely valid.

Fair enough. You say Manning (to simplify we'll start with him) would still be good, against today's defensive players, within the old rules structure.

What then will someone like him do when no one is open? He has not demonstrated the ability to elude or overpower defenders. In fact, he tends to flop on the ground when he sees heavy pressure. Without the ability to throw the ball away, that adds 2-5 more sacks per game.

Manning's arm is also mediocre. He's not going to throw the kind of passes that Favre can throw on the move, without setting his feet. Without the five yard chuck, he will find propping up and throwing instantly to be disastrous because his receivers will need much more time to get open.

Accuracy is everything in today's game. Under the old rules it will be more like 1/3 of the game. The ability to evade the heavy rush instead of dumping the ball at a receiver's feet will be crucial. The ability to gain yards on the ground when your receivers can't get open will be crucial.

You contend that Manning could succeed. I am very interested in your opinion as to how that will happen.

[z Revis]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

Manning's arm is also mediocre. He's not going to throw the kind of passes that Favre can throw on the move, without setting his feet.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ing-highlights

skip to 1:21

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

Fair enough. You say Manning (to simplify we'll start with him) would still be good, against today's defensive players, within the old rules structure. What then will someone like him do when no one is open? He has not demonstrated the ability to elude or overpower defenders. In fact, he tends to flop on the ground when he sees heavy pressure. Without the ability to throw the ball away, that adds 2-5 more sacks per game. Manning's arm is also mediocre. He's not going to throw the kind of passes that Favre can throw on the move, without setting his feet. Without the five yard chuck, he will find propping up and throwing instantly to be disastrous because his receivers will need much more time to get open. Accuracy is everything in today's game. Under the old rules it will be more like 1/3 of the game. The ability to evade the heavy rush instead of dumping the ball at a receiver's feet will be crucial. The ability to gain yards on the ground when your receivers can't get open will be crucial. You contend that Manning could succeed. I am very interested in your opinion as to how that will happen.

No comment on the idea that Manning's arm is mediocre, but he'd do what many vets still do at times (and what I wish young QBs would still do). He'd throw at Wrs feet (don't know why you listed that as being different... that's legal now and was then) or over their heads out of bounds.

I'd also add that the QBs you're talking about were built more in the Tebow mold than the Vick/Young mode (and probably worse passers than Tebow). With the advancement in the size and speed of defensive players and specialization of every position, if the NFL still had those rules today I doubt many of those guys would be all that successful. Now as great athletes, I'm sure many would've worked with the advanced equipment, watched more film, etc to adapt to today's game (even with the old rules) but talking about them as they were (and what they're honored for being) they wouldn't do much against today's players. I actually think that with the old rules and the current players, guys like Brady, Manning, Warner, etc. would still man the position better than any of them (assuming we're using a time machine to just bring them to 2010 in their prime). The only real argument against that is that today's QBs may get hurt more, but I even doubt that. If Qbs had to worry about that more and the passing set up today less, I'm sure they'd train differently... less stats but still the best in the league if not history.

[shotgun styles]

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

No comment on the idea that Manning's arm is mediocre, but he'd do what many vets still do at times (and what I wish young QBs would still do). He'd throw at Wrs feet (don't know why you listed that as being different... that's legal now and was then) or over their heads out of bounds.

Factually untrue. The "throw away" rule has only been around since the early 1990's. Before that it was grounding and flagged. It should still be. It's legalized cheating. Worse than that, it encourages cowardice.

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

I'd also add that the QBs you're talking about were built more in the Tebow mold than the Vick/Young mode (and probably worse passers than Tebow). With the advancement in the size and speed of defensive players and specialization of every position, if the NFL still had those rules today I doubt many of those guys would be all that successful. Now as great athletes, I'm sure many would've worked with the advanced equipment, watched more film, etc to adapt to today's game (even with the old rules) but talking about them as they were (and what they're honored for being) they wouldn't do much against today's players. I actually think that with the old rules and the current players, guys like Brady, Manning, Warner, etc. would still man the position better than any of them (assuming we're using a time machine to just bring them to 2010 in their prime). The only real argument against that is that today's QBs may get hurt more, but I even doubt that. If Qbs had to worry about that more and the passing set up today less, I'm sure they'd train differently... less stats but still the best in the league if not history.

I don't think you're seriously considering what they'd have to do physically. You are under the mistaken impression that they could throw the ball away. They could not. So they would be eating huge hits and sacks. Being a statue in the pocket with the old rules and the new defenders would be a recipe for QB death.

[shotgun styles]

Quote: Originally Posted by z Revis

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...ing-highlights skip to 1:21

You're kidding right? How far did that ball go? 28 yards maybe. A Pop Warner kid could make that throw. Just because Simms screams "so athletic" when it happens doesn't make it so. He's a hype man who is employed by the same machine that insists that even though the rules have been massively tilted in their favor, somehow today's QBs are the best ever.

Yes, Peyton Manning is physically capable of running. There are 85 year old joggers in this country. That doesn't mean they can move the ball against NFL defenses. That little bit of jogging he did to make that throw is anything but impressive.

[z Revis]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

You're kidding right? How far did that ball go? 28 yards maybe. A Pop Warner kid could make that throw. Just because Simms screams "so athletic" when it happens doesn't make it so. He's a hype man who is employed by the same machine that insists that even though the rules have been massively tilted in their favor, somehow today's QBs are the best ever. Yes, Peyton Manning is physically capable of running. There are 85 year old joggers in this country. That doesn't mean they can move the ball against NFL defenses. That little bit of jogging he did to make that throw is anything but impressive.

You're the one that said he can't make pinpoint throws on the move. He clearly can and has done so numerous times. It's just that, most of the time, he doesn't have to. I think you're underestimating Peyton's ability to move around in the pocket, escaping defenders and getting the ball off in time. He has an incredible feel for the pocket. There was another throw in that game where no one was open, he immediately moved outside of the pocket towards the left hash and threw a bullet to Pierre Garcon clear across the field, toward the other sideline.

Here's another one I still vividly remember from the 2006 Pats/Colts regular season matchup.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-Patriots-2006

And BTW, the camera moves once Peyton throws the ball so you can't see it, but he got absolutely NAILED on that throw by the defender you see running after him on the bottom of the screen.

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

Factually untrue. The "throw away" rule has only been around since the early 1990's. Before that it was grounding and flagged. It should still be. It's legalized cheating. Worse than that, it encourages cowardice. I don't think you're seriously considering what they'd have to do physically. You are under the mistaken impression that they could throw the ball away. They could not. So they would be eating huge hits and sacks. Being a statue in the pocket with the old rules and the new defenders would be a recipe for QB death.

Can you give me a link? I think we may be thinking about different rules but I could be wrong. What I'm talking about seems very difficult to consider grounding because it'd be VERY hard for a ref to determine the difference between an overthrown pass and just throwing the ball away. I'm not talking about the chucks 30 feet over a WRs head out of bounds. I'm talking about using the ability to be accurate to throw close to a receiver but out of bounds... or short... just away from where a defender could pick the ball off.

Of course the second part of my post is connected to the first part. If every incomplete pass is considered grounding then yes, there'd be a problem. But lets be honest, the NFL would have changed that anyway (if that were the case) bc it leaves way too much up to the refs to decide the difference.

I'd also like to add that even the learned behavior you mention isn't given enough credit. Every person could be an amazing basketball player. Most would say that Larry Bird wasn't athletic at all, he was just good. That comes from years and years of practice to go along with being very "basketball smart". The best athlete in the world may not put in the time or have the [insert sport] intelligence to put in the proper work, and many less athletic people work overboard for years. This is true in all sports. The ones that put in the time to hone these skills, and have the intelligence to properly use the skills they've perfected deserve just as much credit as the massive beasts at other positions... and more in many cases.