Great article about Manning and co. from last year

[shotgun styles]

Quote: Originally Posted by z Revis

You're the one that said he can't make pinpoint throws on the move. He clearly can and has done so numerous times. It's just that, most of the time, he doesn't have to. I think you're underestimating Peyton's ability to move around in the pocket, escaping defenders and getting the ball off in time. He has an incredible feel for the pocket. There was another throw in that game where no one was open, he immediately moved outside of the pocket towards the left hash and threw a bullet to Pierre Garcon clear across the field, toward the other sideline. Here's another one I still vividly remember from the 2006 Pats/Colts regular season matchup. http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-Patriots-2006 And BTW, the camera moves once Peyton throws the ball so you can't see it, but he got absolutely NAILED on that throw by the defender you see running after him on the bottom of the screen.

First of all I never said Manning could not throw the ball at all on the move. I said he isn't going to gun the ball without his feet set ala Favre, McNabb, Roethlisberger.

But lets break down all the things wrong with your theory in this video.

First off, the ball is under thrown by Manning to a wide open Clark.

Second, the defender chasing Manning FELL DOWN and never had a clean shot at him because he was blocked off balance.

Third, Manning DID NOT THROW ON THE RUN. He stopped and set his feet before throwing (which I admit he can do very quickly).

Lastly, the ball STILL only went 50 yards and was under thrown. Give a better arm an opportunity like that and it's a touchdown.

[shotgun styles]

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

Can you give me a link? I think we may be thinking about different rules but I could be wrong. What I'm talking about seems very difficult to consider grounding because it'd be VERY hard for a ref to determine the difference between an overthrown pass and just throwing the ball away. I'm not talking about the chucks 30 feet over a WRs head out of bounds. I'm talking about using the ability to be accurate to throw close to a receiver but out of bounds... or short... just away from where a defender could pick the ball off. Of course the second part of my post is connected to the first part. If every incomplete pass is considered grounding then yes, there'd be a problem. But lets be honest, the NFL would have changed that anyway (if that were the case) bc it leaves way too much up to the refs to decide the difference. I'd also like to add that even the learned behavior you mention isn't given enough credit. Every person could be an amazing basketball player. Most would say that Larry Bird wasn't athletic at all, he was just good. That comes from years and years of practice to go along with being very "basketball smart". The best athlete in the world may not put in the time or have the [insert sport] intelligence to put in the proper work, and many less athletic people work overboard for years. This is true in all sports. The ones that put in the time to hone these skills, and have the intelligence to properly use the skills they've perfected deserve just as much credit as the massive beasts at other positions... and more in many cases.

I'm going to take on this second part because I have trouble with the first. I have been trying to track down the origins of the "throw away" rule for some time. There are conflicting reports as to whether it came in during the late 80's or early 90's so I can't post a link. The NFL's own website does not mention it, specifically.

So as to the second issue, I wholeheartedly agree that what Manning and Brady do is special. And difficult. I compare it more to golf. Great golfers are rarely the longest off the tee (most physically gifted). They are usually people who have perfected the nuances of their swing, judging distances accurately, and controlling their motion. This takes many hours of hard work and practice.

I am not here to say that what Manning and Brady have done is not without merit. What I am saying is that it's irrelevant. Consider the plight of the DB for a second. There is NOTHING he can do against an accurate pass because touching the receiver is illegal. That makes the rules fundamentally unfair. I get sick every time I see some helpless defender who has done everything legal to stop the play, used perfect technique, and was still beaten by a good pass because he can't touch the receiver.

It gets even worse when you consider the raw physics of man coverage. It is physically impossible to watch the QB and the receiver at the same time on vertical routes. As a result, DBs have to react to what the receiver does. If they turn to look at the QB, the lose track of the receiver. If they jump up when the receiver goes for the ball they are flagged for not turning their head around EVEN IF THEY DON'T TOUCH THE RECEIVER.

A DB is damned if he does and screwed if he doesn't. That's not an athletic contest, that is a game rigged in favor of the offense. Worse yet, I have to hear these clowns tell the horribly atrocious lie that "quarterback is the most difficult position in pro sports". In truth, CORNERBACK is the most difficult position in all of pro sports. To be a good corner have to be fundamentally sound, very confident, highly skilled, and unlike QB's you have to be a world class athlete. QB's have linemen, running backs and receiver's to bail them out of mistakes. A DB on an island has nobody, and one false step means you on someone else's highlight tape during tonight's ESPN wrapup.

So yes, I respect QBs for their skills. But it doesn't even begin to compare with DBs.

[z Revis]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

First of all I never said Manning could not throw the ball at all on the move. I said he isn't going to gun the ball without his feet set ala Favre, McNabb, Roethlisberger. But lets break down all the things wrong with your theory in this video. First off, the ball is under thrown by Manning to a wide open Clark. Second, the defender chasing Manning FELL DOWN and never had a clean shot at him because he was blocked off balance. Third, Manning DID NOT THROW ON THE RUN. He stopped and set his feet before throwing (which I admit he can do very quickly). Lastly, the ball STILL only went 50 yards and was under thrown. Give a better arm an opportunity like that and it's a touchdown.

I'm not sure what else you want man. You want me to go search every single video where Peyton has escaped the pocket to make a throw downfield and try to find a perfect play that disproves your point? Sorry, I'm not all up in arms about this like you are, not going to waste too much time debating this.

Regarding your last point, since when does the QB have to throw the ball over 50 yards? What do you mean the ball "still" only went 50 yards? Your question to Alliball was what is a guy like Manning going to do when no one is open. I've shown you two videos where Peyton has given himself and his receivers time by moving out of the pocket to make a throw downfield instead of sitting there like a 'statue'. Why does he have to throw it for 30 or 50 yards everytime he escapes the pocket? WTF?

Peyton clearly has the ability to escape the pocket, make throws on the run, or even escape and set his feet before throwing which like you said, he does very quickly. He has an unbelievable feel for the pocket. He knows where defenders are and where they aren't. He can move around the pocket or even outside of the pocket accordingly to give himself and his receivers time. Eventually SOMEONE is going to be open on EVERY play, unless he's sacked. And you could also bring in wwhartons point here; that guys like Manning could easily just throw the ball at the feet of a receiver or over a receivers head where it looks like the ball might've been under/overthrown where the refs won't flag it.

Again, to say QB's such as Manning or Brady couldn't play in a different era and/or without these rules is seriously laughable.

[shotgun styles]

Quote: Originally Posted by z Revis

I'm not sure what else you want man. You want me to go search every single video where Peyton has escaped the pocket to make a throw downfield and try to find a perfect play that disproves your point? Sorry, I'm not all up in arms about this like you are, not going to waste too much time debating this. Regarding your last point, since when does the QB have to throw the ball over 50 yards? What do you mean the ball "still" only went 50 yards? Your question to Alliball was what is a guy like Manning going to do when no one is open. I've shown you two videos where Peyton has given himself and his receivers time by moving out of the pocket to make a throw downfield instead of sitting there like a 'statue'. Why does he have to throw it for 30 or 50 yards everytime he escapes the pocket? WTF? Peyton clearly has the ability to escape the pocket, make throws on the run, or even escape and set his feet before throwing which like you said, he does very quickly. He has an unbelievable feel for the pocket. He knows where defenders are and where they aren't. He can move around the pocket or even outside of the pocket accordingly to give himself and his receivers time. Eventually SOMEONE is going to be open on EVERY play, unless he's sacked. And you could also bring in wwhartons point here; that guys like Manning could easily just throw the ball at the feet of a receiver or over a receivers head where it looks like the ball might've been under/overthrown where the refs won't flag it. Again, to say QB's such as Manning or Brady couldn't play in a different era and/or without these rules is seriously laughable.

Look, I know you're Manning fan. My objection to the rules is also about NOT KNOWING what guys like Manning are made of. I'm not saying it's physically impossible for him to play. I'm saying based on what he has demonstrated up to this point, I find it unlikely that someone with his questionable talent would make it in a league with this much talent on D and no rules to protect him.

Compare that to Favre, or McNabb who have made more "oh my God" plays than you can shake a stick at. I want more of those plays and the only way to get it is to really challenge these QBs to step up and play on a level playing field. Right now, I agree, Manning and Brady are the best. But they are winning with a stacked deck and four extra aces in each sleeve. I want to see if they can win without that advantage.

[Evan_OS]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

I'm going to take on this second part because I have trouble with the first. I have been trying to track down the origins of the "throw away" rule for some time. There are conflicting reports as to whether it came in during the late 80's or early 90's so I can't post a link. The NFL's own website does not mention it, specifically. So as to the second issue, I wholeheartedly agree that what Manning and Brady do is special. And difficult. I compare it more to golf. Great golfers are rarely the longest off the tee (most physically gifted). They are usually people who have perfected the nuances of their swing, judging distances accurately, and controlling their motion. This takes many hours of hard work and practice. I am not here to say that what Manning and Brady have done is not without merit. What I am saying is that it's irrelevant. Consider the plight of the DB for a second. There is NOTHING he can do against an accurate pass because touching the receiver is illegal. That makes the rules fundamentally unfair. I get sick every time I see some helpless defender who has done everything legal to stop the play, used perfect technique, and was still beaten by a good pass because he can't touch the receiver. It gets even worse when you consider the raw physics of man coverage. It is physically impossible to watch the QB and the receiver at the same time on vertical routes. As a result, DBs have to react to what the receiver does. If they turn to look at the QB, the lose track of the receiver. If they jump up when the receiver goes for the ball they are flagged for not turning their head around EVEN IF THEY DON'T TOUCH THE RECEIVER. A DB is damned if he does and screwed if he doesn't. That's not an athletic contest, that is a game rigged in favor of the offense. Worse yet, I have to hear these clowns tell the horribly atrocious lie that "quarterback is the most difficult position in pro sports". In truth, CORNERBACK is the most difficult position in all of pro sports. To be a good corner have to be fundamentally sound, very confident, highly skilled, and unlike QB's you have to be a world class athlete. QB's have linemen, running backs and receiver's to bail them out of mistakes. A DB on an island has nobody, and one false step means you on someone else's highlight tape during tonight's ESPN wrapup. So yes, I respect QBs for their skills. But it doesn't even begin to compare with DBs.

It's an old saying

"Can't defend a perfect pass"

[Evan_OS]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

First of all I never said Manning could not throw the ball at all on the move. I said he isn't going to gun the ball without his feet set ala Favre, McNabb, Roethlisberger. But lets break down all the things wrong with your theory in this video. First off, the ball is under thrown by Manning to a wide open Clark. Second, the defender chasing Manning FELL DOWN and never had a clean shot at him because he was blocked off balance. Third, Manning DID NOT THROW ON THE RUN. He stopped and set his feet before throwing (which I admit he can do very quickly). Lastly, the ball STILL only went 50 yards and was under thrown. Give a better arm an opportunity like that and it's a touchdown.

Underthrown to Dallas Clark? He wasn't even throwing to Dallas Clark. Look who made the catch dude, Marvin Harrison. The pass was about 40 yards and he was scrambling. He could throw it easily 50 yards if he wasn't under pressure. Yes I know, he set his feet, but he knew if he didn't get it off he would of been creamed. I think he would of thrown the ball better if he was just chillin there.

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

I'm going to take on this second part because I have trouble with the first. I have been trying to track down the origins of the "throw away" rule for some time. There are conflicting reports as to whether it came in during the late 80's or early 90's so I can't post a link. The NFL's own website does not mention it, specifically. So as to the second issue, I wholeheartedly agree that what Manning and Brady do is special. And difficult. I compare it more to golf. Great golfers are rarely the longest off the tee (most physically gifted). They are usually people who have perfected the nuances of their swing, judging distances accurately, and controlling their motion. This takes many hours of hard work and practice. I am not here to say that what Manning and Brady have done is not without merit. What I am saying is that it's irrelevant. Consider the plight of the DB for a second. There is NOTHING he can do against an accurate pass because touching the receiver is illegal. That makes the rules fundamentally unfair. I get sick every time I see some helpless defender who has done everything legal to stop the play, used perfect technique, and was still beaten by a good pass because he can't touch the receiver. It gets even worse when you consider the raw physics of man coverage. It is physically impossible to watch the QB and the receiver at the same time on vertical routes. As a result, DBs have to react to what the receiver does. If they turn to look at the QB, the lose track of the receiver. If they jump up when the receiver goes for the ball they are flagged for not turning their head around EVEN IF THEY DON'T TOUCH THE RECEIVER. A DB is damned if he does and screwed if he doesn't. That's not an athletic contest, that is a game rigged in favor of the offense. Worse yet, I have to hear these clowns tell the horribly atrocious lie that "quarterback is the most difficult position in pro sports". In truth, CORNERBACK is the most difficult position in all of pro sports. To be a good corner have to be fundamentally sound, very confident, highly skilled, and unlike QB's you have to be a world class athlete. QB's have linemen, running backs and receiver's to bail them out of mistakes. A DB on an island has nobody, and one false step means you on someone else's highlight tape during tonight's ESPN wrapup. So yes, I respect QBs for their skills. But it doesn't even begin to compare with DBs.

I'm looking more for the exact rule than the origin (sounds like you might have a link for that). I don't remember a time when a QB couldn't throw over the head or at the feet of defenders. From what I remember, the rule they changed was about being able to throw the ball away outside the pocket and within 5 feet (or whatever it is) of the WR. Before that, I think there just wasn't a set yardage that was considered ok. Now that I think of it, if that's true then they just put the distance in to take the judgment more out of the ref's hands. So basically we're just talking about the ability to throw the ball away outside of the pocket. It really doesn't take anything away from what Peyton or Brady could do. The rules about sliding, diving at knees, hitting in the head are there for safety. Take them away and it'd just mean these QBs would get hurt more. It'd effect how often they're on the field, not how they'd look while on the field. The other rules that limit DBs and D linemen do prevent an even playing field between offense and defense, but that's across the board. Peyton and Brady would be worse but so would everybody else... and they'd still be that much better than everybody else, so still worthy of HOF futures. And what I'm saying is that if you put either of them back in the 70's they'd still be the best QBs in the league bc they have trained themselves for the position better than any of those guys could back then... modern technology. Unless I'm wrong about the passing rule you're talking about, they'd both be the best QBs in the league back then. And the guys from back then would struggle against today's defenses.

I wouldn't be mad if they dropped all the rules you were talking about, but having them there isn't really a problem for me either. Every new rule benefits one side or the other, and eventually teams and players adjust. The top level talent gets better at every position. Guys like Baily, Aso and Revis have figured out how to succeed with the new rules. And we've got DEs getting 20 sacks in a season. More and more players and coaches get better at defending these high powered offenses every year. Eventually it'll even out. In the end, big plays on offense and defense are more exciting.

The only real issue I have with rule changes is that it makes it harder to compare today's players with the best of the past. But that's true with any rule change in any sport, so I can't really get too upset about it.