Is Michael Vick a 'bust'?

[DTX3]

Quote: Originally Posted by bkrich83

Absolutely. Regressed as his career continued. Spent 2 years away from the game and in the big house. Now the #2 qb behind Kevin Kolb. A situational player at best now. When you draft a guy at the top of the draft this is not how you envision their career playing out.

Pure comedy. The man lead his team to the playoffs and WON at Lambeau Field against Brett freakin' Favre. Give me a break. Bust. He wasn't the best QB, but he was no bust.

[rangerrick012]

Quote: Originally Posted by Cebby

That debate had nothing to do with quarterbacking ability.

How did it not? There were some who thought that Schaub would be better fitted for running Petrino's system and was the pocket passer ATL needed. If Vick was so great why were they constantly trying to make him more of a pocket passer?

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Basically the argument appears to be that he's a bust because he went to prison over an issue that a variety of people are very sensitive to. If he had his leg bitten off by a shark in the summer of 2007 instead of going to prison, this thread doesn't exist.

He went to prison. That's a very big thing which has to be taken into consideration IMO. And like I said, I'm not against Vick because of the dogfighting. I'm not one of those people who thought Vick should have been banned for life. But when evaluating his career, that has to be taken into consideration. On the field he was never a great, top tier QB in the NFL. That to me makes him a bust, and combine that with the off field circumstances and he's a definite bust.

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by rangerrick012

Was there any point in time where you would say Vick was a top 10 QB in the NFL? Maybe that 2004 season, but outside of that, I don't think so. And sorry if it comes off like I have an agenda, just trying to create discussion. This is a discussion forum, isn't it? I got nothing personal against Vick, I live in VA and down here people still look at him as a god. But like others have said, when you draft a guy #1, you don't envision him being in prison 6-7 years later. To me that plays a part into determining whether he's a bust or not.

Yeah there was a time. I'm trying not to rehash the discussion that's happened over and over with people looking at his passing stats, ignoring his rushing, etc. etc. In no way did he reach his potential and we'll never know if he ever would have, but in the time he played he made good on the investments in comparison to other QBs picked #1. Therefore I can't say he was a "bust". Like Cebby said, if he had a career ending injury (or one that put him down for two years) this wouldn't even be a question.

If your argument is he's a bust bc he went to jail and ATL had to go in another direction, that's fair enough. But your initial response that pointed out his record, stats and on field accomplishments was way off. He hardly played like Peyton Manning but if you're comparing him to all QBs taken #1 and not just the best, he most definitely did the job while on the field.

Quote: Originally Posted by rangerrick012

Also, people forget before the whole dogfighting thing came down, there was debate in Atlanta (not necessarily in the front office, but in general) about who the better QB for the team was, Matt Schaub or Vick. Vick was definitely on the hot seat in ATL even before the charges came down, is what I'm saying.

That's a debate that happens all over the place whenever a team has a bad season... everybody loves the back up. Before last year there was discussion about the Pats shopping Brady and starting Cassell. Doesn't mean there was any merit to it at all. Even your footnote of "not necessarily in the front office" is telling since the front office is the only place that matters. Basically Vick got hurt and people got a glimpse of Schaub who, by the way, is a pretty good QB. Debate begins. Questionable behavior aside, if Leftwich/Dixon helps get PIT off to a fast start this year they'll be talk about keeping them behind center and getting rid of Big Ben. It's not really relevant in terms of ability.

[Cebby]

Quote: Originally Posted by rangerrick012

How did it not?

It's pretty obvious if you look at Atlanta and both quarterbacks. I was living in Atlanta during this "controversy." It wasn't hard to identify the Schaub supporters.

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There were some who thought that Schaub would be better fitted for running Petrino's system and was the pocket passer ATL needed.

Apparently not Petrino.

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On the field he was never a great, top tier QB in the NFL.

Then every #1 quarterback over the last 25 years has been a bust aside from Peyton Manning. He's the only #1 pick to become an All Pro QB.

Nobody is arguing that Vick wasn't Manning, Brady, or Brees.

We're arguing that there's quite a gap between elite, Hall of Fame player and bust. Vick falls in that range.

He has 3 Pro Bowls, beat Green Bay in Green Bay for the first time ever, went the NFC Championship, and has the second best winning percentage of #1 picks since 1985. He wasn't great, he wasn't a Hall of Famer, and he's not a good person, but he's far from Russell, Carr, George, Couch, and Alex Smith.

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by rangerrick012

He went to prison. That's a very big thing which has to be taken into consideration IMO. And like I said, I'm not against Vick because of the dogfighting. I'm not one of those people who thought Vick should have been banned for life. But when evaluating his career, that has to be taken into consideration. On the field he was never a great, top tier QB in the NFL. That to me makes him a bust, and combine that with the off field circumstances and he's a definite bust.

You keep saying that like it's fact when every example you've put out to support it has been shot down. You said his 37-27 record was bad (nope), tried to say the rushing attack was only good bc of Dunn/Duckett (way off), seem to be ignoring his rushing ability and the fact that entire defenses game planned to stop him, tried to say his D carried the team that went to the NFCC game (#14? come on).

Again I ask, what QBs picked #1 were NOT busts if Vick is based on his years starting for ATL? It seems that being picked #1 as a QB has to mean HOF career or at least SB winner to not be considered a bust. If that's what you're saying then I just disagree. If that's not what you're saying, then please explain.

[CW McGraw]

Getting five years or so of above average QB play and then having to draft another QB in the top 5 means you're a bust.

[BlueNGold]

No IMO but I'll admit I am biased because I was a massive Mike Vick fan in my younger days (and still am).

The thing is, he never had help. His best receiver was who? Peerless Price for 1 year? Michael Jenkins? Roddy White before he became a top receiver in the leauge? Alge Crumpler? And the fact he had almost no targets yet still carried the team to multiple playoff appearances including an NFC Championship to me proves he wasn't a "bust".

Also, he never really had a chance to improve as a passer although that was partly because of his own stupidity, which ended up taking him away from the game for awhile. No one can say for sure what would've happened if he had something like a great QB coach, head coach or just better targets to throw to that could make plays.

[rangerrick012]

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

Yeah there was a time. I'm trying not to rehash the discussion that's happened over and over with people looking at his passing stats, ignoring his rushing, etc. etc. In no way did he reach his potential and we'll never know if he ever would have, but in the time he played he made good on the investments in comparison to other QBs picked #1. Therefore I can't say he was a "bust". Like Cebby said, if he had a career ending injury (or one that put him down for two years) this wouldn't even be a question. If your argument is he's a bust bc he went to jail and ATL had to go in another direction, that's fair enough. But your initial response that pointed out his record, stats and on field accomplishments was way off. He hardly played like Peyton Manning but if you're comparing him to all QBs taken #1 and not just the best, he most definitely did the job while on the field.

Fair enough. To me, Vick never developed past being that playmaking athlete we saw in college, into being an effective passer and versatile playmaker ala McNabb, McNair, Young (Steve not Vince) and others of that mold. He never quite worked to develop his all around game, and depended too much on his athleticism to make plays. Maybe bust is harsh, because of the stigma that comes along with that label, but he was a definite disappointment.

People bring up the NFC title appearance. What did he do to help his team build on that? They didn't progress, they regressed and the coach was fired 2 years later. Not all Vick's fault, I know, but Vick's lack of development as a passer certainly didn't help things. And don't tell me it was a non issue, Vick's lack of passing ability was one of the most brought up things when talking about him. It's not some imagined thing people are making up.

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

You keep saying that like it's fact when every example you've put out to support it has been shot down. You said his 37-27 record was bad (nope), tried to say the rushing attack was only good bc of Dunn/Duckett (way off), seem to be ignoring his rushing ability and the fact that entire defenses game planned to stop him, tried to say his D carried the team that went to the NFCC game (#14? come on). Again I ask, what QBs picked #1 were NOT busts if Vick is based on his years starting for ATL? It seems that being picked #1 as a QB has to mean HOF career or at least SB winner to not be considered a bust. If that's what you're saying then I just disagree. If that's not what you're saying, then please explain.

Look I'm not taking away from what Vick did. For 2-3 seasons he was one of the best playmakers in the league. But after that, he didn't develop. He didn't add anything to his game outside of his running ability. He didn't develop as a passer even somewhat. Combine that with the off field issues, that's what makes him a 'bust' in my eyes. To me I can't separate the two. If you want to, that's fine. But if you're talking stricly on the field, I would still label him a disappointment.