at which position is it easiest to become an all-time great?

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by The15thunter

hall of famers: dave casper - more receiver than blocker mike ditka - equal parts mauler and receiver john mackey - more receiver than blocker; revolutionized the idea of a tight end as a catching weapon ozzie newsome - almost entirely a receiver charlie sanders - unsure jackie smith - unsure kellen winslow - entirely a receiver good or great cases to get in: tony gonzalez - entirely a receiver shannon sharpe - entirely a receiver antonio gates - began entirely as a receiver, now it's about 80/20 jason witten - more like ditka, does everything well dallas clark - entirely a receiver

Not saying I straight up discredit your knowledge of these players in this regard... but I'd need a bit more than that. It's really hard, as a fan, to know how well any of these guys blocked. All we can really judge is how often the team uses them to block which may be based on scheme, the oline, WR options, etc.

[The15thunter]

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

Not saying I straight up discredit your knowledge of these players in this regard... but I'd need a bit more than that. It's really hard, as a fan, to know how well any of these guys blocked. All we can really judge is how often the team uses them to block which may be based on scheme, the oline, WR options, etc.

well, i know the criticisms of ozzie, kellen, tony and shannon have been that they were not blockers at all and pretty much only served as pass catchers.

i also think everyone knows that dallas clark is basically a slot receiver for the colts. to quote a scouting report i found on him: "Flaws - Mediocre blocker at best, both in the running and passing games. Doesn't have a great technique and the raw strength to contain defenders." - http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/2780/Dallas_Clark

if you want, we can leave the other greats out and just use these guys as case studies, since their blocking grievances are well chronicled and owned up to.

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by The15thunter

well, i know the criticisms of ozzie, kellen, tony and shannon have been that they were not blockers at all and pretty much only served as pass catchers. i also think everyone knows that dallas clark is basically a slot receiver for the colts. to quote a scouting report i found on him: "Flaws - Mediocre blocker at best, both in the running and passing games. Doesn't have a great technique and the raw strength to contain defenders." - http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/2780/Dallas_Clark if you want, we can leave the other greats out and just use these guys as case studies, since their blocking grievances are well chronicled and owned up to.

Yep, that's cool... and good examples.

[The15thunter]

thank you, sir.

my belief is that it's probably easiest to become an elite tight end. obviously you want to be blessed with a good combination of size, speed and strength, but if you become an elite receiving option, your path to elite status is very hard to deter. you aren't really that dependent on play-calling, although every team that has had an elite pass-catching tight end has featured him as either their first or second option. you're not asked to do many things that you can't naturally do for a person of your size or skill, and you aren't facing many players on defense that can stop you because your athleticism puts you on a higher plane than the people assigned to cover you.

whereas an elite wide receiver has to contend with specific schemes to stop them as well as increasingly athletic cornerbacks, tight ends tend to face linebackers and safeties who are either too small or too slow to stop them. it's harder for teams to scheme to phase out a tight end, as well, because he can line up in so many ways and can run an assortment of routes that are easier to achieve due to initial placement on the field.

because being a dominant blocker is now considered a great novelty instead of a requirement, it's that much easier to become a great.

thoughts?

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by The15thunter

thank you, sir. my belief is that it's probably easiest to become an elite tight end. obviously you want to be blessed with a good combination of size, speed and strength, but if you become an elite receiving option, your path to elite status is very hard to deter. you aren't really that dependent on play-calling, although every team that has had an elite pass-catching tight end has featured him as either their first or second option. you're not asked to do many things that you can't naturally do for a person of your size or skill, and you aren't facing many players on defense that can stop you because your athleticism puts you on a higher plane than the people assigned to cover you. whereas an elite wide receiver has to contend with specific schemes to stop them as well as increasingly athletic cornerbacks, tight ends tend to face linebackers and safeties who are either too small or too slow to stop them. it's harder for teams to scheme to phase out a tight end, as well, because he can line up in so many ways and can run an assortment of routes that are easier to achieve due to initial placement on the field. because being a dominant blocker is now considered a great novelty instead of a requirement, it's that much easier to become a great. thoughts?

Goop points... especially the angle in your second paragraph. Even if you're the best TE in the league, teams have a hard time dedicating a top corner to guard you. Even if they did, they'd need one good enough to cover and strong enough to tackle.

Yeah, very good points.

[kwpit79]

I know the position that is hardest to get in the HOF (not counting kickers and punters) -- the interior of the offensive line, specifically centers and guards. I mean, there are lots of people who will tell you Dermontti Dawson and Jerry Kramer were the greatest of all time in their positions and they're not in the HOF, and Kramer's been eligible for like 25 years, lol.