QBs w/SuperBowl Rings --> Overrated?

[steelcurtain311]

Quote:

It's crazy isn't it. Peyton would get trashed before he finally got over the hump, first beating New England and then finally winning the SB. For instance take Rivers, Eli and Ben. To me, no question Rivers is the better QB out of all 3 yet the other 2 have SBs and one has multiple. Interesting nonetheless.

Because Peyton has always struggled in the playoffs. He still does. He only won a SB because he got to play Rex Grossman in it. He's the greatest QB I've ever seen, yet he for some reason struggles so hard in the playoffs. I don't understand it. Well, I guess I do, since the Colts are such a one dimensional team.

I don't agree with your Rivers/Ben/Eli assessment in the slightest. Rivers is a better fantasy QB than them, sure. Yet he also plays on a team where he's forced to throw the whole game. It also leads to him making poor decisions. Eli's a middle of the pack QB, he's never really done anything at all to "wow" me. Giants didn't win a SB because of him (nor did they even go to a SB because of him) they won it because of a ridiculous defensive performance and a fluke catch.

Ben has intangibles that most QB's don't have. The fact that this franchise has put the ball in his hands, with the game on the line, since he was a freaking rookie, and he delivers in that spot 9 times out of 10, that's elite QB. Not to mention he puts up the stats when he has to, I don't see how you can argue that. The Steelers are a running team, and a defensive team. When Ben has to, he lights up the statsheet. He throws a good deep ball, he's an accurate passer all around. The reason you don't see the BIG TD numbers every year from him, is because he has an imbecile for an offensive coordinator. All of that aside, the man's record speaks for himself. There's only one other QB in history who's been slightly more successful than him at this point in his career, from a wins standpoint, and that's Tom Brady. And what did everyone say about Brady? He's good, but he's not Peyton Manning.

Rivers is to Ben what Peyton is to Brady. When Brady's offense went pass-happy, what did he do? He smashed Peyton's TD record, showing that he could be the fantasy QB-God that Peyton is. I seriously doubt that many QB's could have even made the playoffs in 2008, behind Ben's offensive line. That was a TERRIBLE line. And all of his RB's were injured, all season. The gameplan was basically as follows: Defense does everything possible to keep it close until the fourth quarter. Ben proceeds to win game in fourth quarter, completing passes with three defenders hanging from his waist. And they not only get into the playoffs like that, but Ben wins the SB in that same fashion, on one of the most amazing drives, throw, and catches in history (and he should have won MVP for that game, too). Phillip Rivers has done this? He hasn't, despite being on elite teams. A guy like Ben understands winning and what you have to do to win. I have no doubt he'd be a winner on other teams. Look at Josh Freeman over in Tampa. He's not lighting up the stat sheet every week, but he's WINNING. On a less-than-great team. Because he understands winning. Some QB's just have that IT factor. They might not throw for 300 yards 4 TD's every week, but that's because it's not their system or purpose to do that. It's their purpose to win the game.

I look at the situation of the franchise that a QB is in, and his efficiency in that situation, before I look at stats. I don't give a **** about stats, to be honest with you. Kyle Orton looks like a good QB on paper, this season. Because of the system he's playing in, and because of the situation he's playing in. In reality, his team sucks and he's really not a good QB at all. People always say things like "If Peyton had Brady's defense, he'd of won 5 SB's" but how can you even say that, when Peyton had a playoff team nearly every year since he's been in the league? Maybe you should start wondering what Brady knows that Peyton doesn't.

[NovaStar]

Quote: Originally Posted by steelcurtain311

Because Peyton has always struggled in the playoffs. He still does. He only won a SB because he got to play Rex Grossman in it. He's the greatest QB I've ever seen, yet he for some reason struggles so hard in the playoffs. I don't understand it. Well, I guess I do, since the Colts are such a one dimensional team. I don't agree with your Rivers/Ben/Eli assessment in the slightest. Rivers is a better fantasy QB than them, sure. Yet he also plays on a team where he's forced to throw the whole game. It also leads to him making poor decisions. Eli's a middle of the pack QB, he's never really done anything at all to "wow" me. Giants didn't win a SB because of him (nor did they even go to a SB because of him) they won it because of a ridiculous defensive performance and a fluke catch. Ben has intangibles that most QB's don't have. The fact that this franchise has put the ball in his hands, with the game on the line, since he was a freaking rookie, and he delivers in that spot 9 times out of 10, that's elite QB. Not to mention he puts up the stats when he has to, I don't see how you can argue that. The Steelers are a running team, and a defensive team. When Ben has to, he lights up the statsheet. He throws a good deep ball, he's an accurate passer all around. The reason you don't see the BIG TD numbers every year from him, is because he has an imbecile for an offensive coordinator. All of that aside, the man's record speaks for himself. There's only one other QB in history who's been slightly more successful than him at this point in his career, from a wins standpoint, and that's Tom Brady. And what did everyone say about Brady? He's good, but he's not Peyton Manning. Rivers is to Ben what Peyton is to Brady. When Brady's offense went pass-happy, what did he do? He smashed Peyton's TD record, showing that he could be the fantasy QB-God that Peyton is. I seriously doubt that many QB's could have even made the playoffs in 2008, behind Ben's offensive line. That was a TERRIBLE line. And all of his RB's were injured, all season. The gameplan was basically as follows: Defense does everything possible to keep it close until the fourth quarter. Ben proceeds to win game in fourth quarter, completing passes with three defenders hanging from his waist. And they not only get into the playoffs like that, but Ben wins the SB in that same fashion, on one of the most amazing drives, throw, and catches in history (and he should have won MVP for that game, too). Phillip Rivers has done this? He hasn't, despite being on elite teams. A guy like Ben understands winning and what you have to do to win. I have no doubt he'd be a winner on other teams. Look at Josh Freeman over in Tampa. He's not lighting up the stat sheet every week, but he's WINNING. On a less-than-great team. Because he understands winning. Some QB's just have that IT factor. They might not throw for 300 yards 4 TD's every week, but that's because it's not their system or purpose to do that. It's their purpose to win the game. I look at the situation of the franchise that a QB is in, and his efficiency in that situation, before I look at stats. I don't give a **** about stats, to be honest with you. Kyle Orton looks like a good QB on paper, this season. Because of the system he's playing in, and because of the situation he's playing in. In reality, his team sucks and he's really not a good QB at all. People always say things like "If Peyton had Brady's defense, he'd of won 5 SB's" but how can you even say that, when Peyton had a playoff team nearly every year since he's been in the league? Maybe you should start wondering what Brady knows that Peyton doesn't.

This right here. Good post Steel.

[rangerrick012]

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

The point is the same. Those qbs get way more credit than they probably deserve. Teams win superbowls, not individuals. You also completely ignored my Ben Rothlisberger reference. Again, his 22.6 rating is the worst for a winning qb in super bowl history and James Harrison and his 99 yrd int was just as responsible as Big Ben was for his second championship. Not to mention his teams were ranked number 1 in defense both championship seasons.

I don't think Roethlisberger is a HOF QB at this point, actually.

[rangerrick012]

Quote: Originally Posted by steelcurtain311

I don't agree with your Rivers/Ben/Eli assessment in the slightest. Rivers is a better fantasy QB than them, sure. Yet he also plays on a team where he's forced to throw the whole game. It also leads to him making poor decisions. Eli's a middle of the pack QB, he's never really done anything at all to "wow" me. Giants didn't win a SB because of him (nor did they even go to a SB because of him) they won it because of a ridiculous defensive performance and a fluke catch.

A lot to swallow in your post, so I'll try to sum it up. Hate to turn this into an Eli-Ben comparison, but IMO Eli had more to do with his team winning the SB than Ben did with his team. If not for Vanderjagt missing a FG and the refs being awful in the SB, Steelers probably don't even win that 1st one. And yes he's had a hell of a defense and running game to help him. Ben hasn't carried anything. Meanwhile Eli led one of the best GW drives I've ever seen. Ben had more to do w/ the 2nd SB title, but that's still not enough to put him in that Brady-Manning elite category IMO. To me Roethlisberger at this point isn't much ahead of McNabb, and I wouldn't put either in the HOF as of yet. I hope that gives some perspective on my thoughts on the SB-HOF thing, to bring it back on topic.

[kingkilla56]

Quote: Originally Posted by rangerrick012

I don't think Roethlisberger is a HOF QB at this point, actually.

Agree. He's good but he's getting pumped up with fantastic hyperbole and marginalizing of other players... To be hall of fame, you need stats more so than rings and the guy has had 2 good statistical seasons...true story. But maybe his superbowls carry him into the hall

[steelcurtain311]

He also played near perfect in his second SB. He was too immature for the SB in his first go-round, and he played awful, although he did play awesome in the entire postseason leading up to it. Peyton didn't play great in his SB either, but he still won because of his defense, and the hilarity that was Rex Grossman.

Saying James Harrison's INT is just as responsible is like saying Ty Law is just as responsible as Tom Brady, and discrediting him. Ben won the freaking game in the final minutes, on a storybook drive. We're talking about QB's here, and that was one helluva QB performance. The guy is still young and on a stable franchise, he could realistically finish his career with 5 rings.

[steelcurtain311]

Quote: Originally Posted by rangerrick012

A lot to swallow in your post, so I'll try to sum it up. Hate to turn this into an Eli-Ben comparison, but IMO Eli had more to do with his team winning the SB than Ben did with his team. If not for Vanderjagt missing a FG and the refs being awful in the SB, Steelers probably don't even win that 1st one. And yes he's had a hell of a defense and running game to help him. Ben hasn't carried anything. Meanwhile Eli led one of the best GW drives I've ever seen. Ben had more to do w/ the 2nd SB title, but that's still not enough to put him in that Brady-Manning elite category IMO. To me Roethlisberger at this point isn't much ahead of McNabb, and I wouldn't put either in the HOF as of yet. I hope that gives some perspective on my thoughts on the SB-HOF thing, to bring it back on topic.

If you want to talk about vanderjagt's missed FG, how bout we talk about the refs overturning an obvious Troy Polamalu INT, that completely changed the entire course of the game, which was thoroughly dominated by the Steelers by that point?

In that first SB, the Seahawks played like absolute trash. They had every opportunity to be in that game, and they still lost, with or without the calls. Most of them were questionable anyways.

Ben had zero running game during his second SB, and the entire season leading up to it. So I don't really have any idea what you're talking about. His first two seasons in the league, he had a running game. Aside from that? Never, until now. Eli had running game and defense leading the way during his one SB season. He had them numerous other seasons too, and failed to make the playoffs, or limped in with an underachieving season.

To act like any QB wins anything without defense is just stupid, and shouldn't even be an argument in this thread. Like I said, look at the situation they are in. The farthest you're going to get with no real defensive help is the CCF, if even there.

[kingkilla56]

Quote: Originally Posted by steelcurtain311

He also played near perfect in his second SB. He was too immature for the SB in his first go-round, and he played awful, although he did play awesome in the entire postseason leading up to it. Peyton didn't play great in his SB either, but he still won because of his defense, and the hilarity that was Rex Grossman. Saying James Harrison's INT is just as responsible is like saying Ty Law is just as responsible as Tom Brady, and discrediting him. Ben won the freaking game in the final minutes, on a storybook drive. We're talking about QB's here, and that was one helluva QB performance. The guy is still young and on a stable franchise, he could realistically finish his career with 5 rings.

Well couldn't I just call the game winning TD catch by Holmes a "fluke" and it be totally true? That is what you did when you discredited Eli Manning and the Giant's victory by calling the Tyree a "fluke". Wasn't that final drive a story book drive as well? or did the "fluke" ruin that entire game?

Regardless, winning a superbowl doesn't make you a great qb but it certainly doesn't hurt.