Denver Broncos Quarterback Situation

[SPTO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

If we're going to base off of actually seeing both play, Orton is a MUCH better option right now. I've seen both play on multiple occasions, and Orton is so far ahead of Tebow that comparing the two isn't even worth debating. Orton looks like a pro football player, Tebow looks like a rookie. Adam Weber appears to be grasping the Denver offense as quickly as Tebow is. That's not hyperbole, that's observation.

Oh I didn't mean he's not a better option in that he's not as good as Orton just he's not a top flight QB. I mean he's a very good dependable guy to have but I don't think you're going to have long term success with him under center. I'm rooting for Orton too. Sometimes a hotshot kid like Tebow needs to see that talent alone can't see you through in the NFL.

[mockme]

Orton's the better quarterback, and the better player should play. It's as simple as that. And what the hell is this about Orton folding under pressure? The guy threw for 3653 yards with a completion percentage of 58.8 and had 20 touchdowns to 9 interceptions in 2010. If you call that folding fine. But in my eyes folding under pressure is not something like that. Tebow's 5 touchdowns to 3 interceptions is closer to that.

He may have the intangibles and be a great leader and the stuff that has already been said, but right now at least Tim Tebow is not better than Kyle Orton.

[mikenever]

Quote: Originally Posted by Palo20

I'm a Florida fan but I do not believe Tebow will be a great NFL QB. I also think his upside is not nearly as high as everyone says. I think his upside is about David Garrars status. Solid thrower, capable of moving the chains with his legs (Garrard does this a lot), but maybe the 10th-15th best QB in the league at his peak. So, now I find it interesting that everyone who cites Tebow's strengths rarely discuss his ability to quarterback. It's always he's a "winner," "leader," and his intangibles are off the charts. Teammates love him and rally around him. Well, now all of his "strengths" may be a little overblown since the word is the locker room wants Orton. At some point you have to make the throws and intangibles don't cut it.

That's not true.

* He throws a nice deep ball
* He has the strength to play through contact and extend plays in a way that is, perhaps, superior to Roethlisberger or Steve McNair. In some instances this negates the elongated windup and makes some of the criticism overblown
* His threat of running opens up passing windows since LBs have to keep one eye on Tebow in case he runs. So when people say he's not accurate, the truth is, he doesnt need to be the most accurate since the defense has to respect his ability to run.
* He generally takes care of the ball.

Baseball provides a good analogy for the Tebow discussion. In baseball, a lot of guys who have more ideal swings can't necessarily hit 95 mph pitching as well as some guys who have more elongated loopy swings. But in baseball, the first question people ask is, "can he hit 95 mph pitching". Football is backwards though. If it was football, they would start with the ideal swing and then worry about whether the guy can hit 95 mph pitching.

Regardless of how it looks, it's more important to be able to hit 95 mph pitching. If you can't hit 95 mph pitching, the perfect swing can get you a lot of HRs in batting practice. Meanwhile, if you can hit 95 mph pitching with a "flawed" swing, you can make it into the hall of fame.

[ImTellinTim]

When you have to compete with Brady Quinn to be the backup, you don't have a "situation".

A lot of this has to do with Tebow not getting to interact with the coaches at all during the lockout. All reports I've seen have been saying what Broncos86 is trying to tell you guys. Tebow just isn't that good right now.

You can have all the anecdotes about "intangibles", "grit", and "winningness" you want. At the end of the day you need some of that, but you also need to have fundamental quarterback skills to make it in the NFL. It's ridiculous that Orton was even shopped IMO (if it was actually a serious thing - the media likes to run with things). Why piss off your best chance to win right now?

I was impressed by Tebow's play last year for sure. But it just looks like he's not getting it right now.

[untrugby]

Quote: Originally Posted by mikenever

That's not true. * He throws a nice deep ball * He has the strength to play through contact and extend plays in a way that is, perhaps, superior to Roethlisberger or Steve McNair. In some instances this negates the elongated windup and makes some of the criticism overblown * His threat of running opens up passing windows since LBs have to keep one eye on Tebow in case he runs. So when people say he's not accurate, the truth is, he doesnt need to be the most accurate since the defense has to respect his ability to run. * He generally takes care of the ball. Baseball provides a good analogy for the Tebow discussion. In baseball, a lot of guys who have more ideal swings can't necessarily hit 95 mph pitching as well as some guys who have more elongated loopy swings. But in baseball, the first question people ask is, "can he hit 95 mph pitching". Football is backwards though. If it was football, they would start with the ideal swing and then worry about whether the guy can hit 95 mph pitching. Regardless of how it looks, it's more important to be able to hit 95 mph pitching. If you can't hit 95 mph pitching, the perfect swing can get you a lot of HRs in batting practice. Meanwhile, if you can hit 95 mph pitching with a "flawed" swing, you can make it into the hall of fame.

In baseball the question is can you hit a curveball? Drew henson could hit a 95 mph fastball and he couldnt make it in baseball or football. You cant fix Tebows mechanics or change his accuracy a ton. He is what he is, and what he is is average.

[SPTO]

Quote: Originally Posted by mikenever

* He has the strength to play through contact and extend plays in a way that is, perhaps, superior to Roethlisberger or Steve McNair. In some instances this negates the elongated windup and makes some of the criticism overblown

Being able to take punishment has very little to do with the whole arm mechanics problem Tebow has. As we've seen in some instances if someone on the D-Line can get through and Tebow is about to throw all they have to do is swat the ball from behind Tebow because of his windup which will lead to the ball coming loose and a turnover.

This has already happened to him IIRC and teams will continue to go after the ball in that manner until he develops a more compact delivery.

[mikenever]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

This point of view is inaccurate. I'm sorry, but it's as if nobody is reading what I'm typing. Did anyone actually READ what I just wrote? Let's blame Orton and Tebow because defenders were often tackling the RBs behind the line of scrimmage.

Tebow brings his own running game and, like Orton, had a QB rating in the 80s.

Quote:

Playing quarterback, one needs to read the defense and go through progressions. Tebow CANNOT do this right now. Without worrying about defenders tackling him, he cannot make progressive reads. Once his first read is gone, he panics and wants to run. I watched it with my own eyes at scrimmage and at training camp. Tebow gets flustered when pressured. He has ONE reaction to pressure: run. Once he runs, if he does actually see someone, he has to reset and throw. And every time he's thrown from this situation, it's been wildly inaccurate. I'm not making this stuff up, it's what has actually taken place.

No, a QB needs to produce points. I just mentioned how this evaluation process is backwards in relation to baseball. In the end, its about consistently scoring points. Orton was 3/13 while the offense under Tebow was 3/3. The only thing to gleam from your comment about reading progressions is that under Tebow, the offense should be even better...because the offense under Tebow is/was better even with the flaws your complaining about (assuming your accurate).

Quote:

We'll see how it goes with preseason. But right now, don't be shocked if Tebow is overtaken by Brady Quinn. That's not a cut on Tebow, it's simply the fact that Tebow is struggling with the fundamentals right now, and it's likely a direct result of no OTAs and the lock out. Tebow lost a lot of time, and while he's in great physical shape, he's playing catch up in a lot of ways.

What theyre doing right now is not even real football. You do realize that in real games, the defenses are allowed to tackle the QBs right? They might as well be playing lawn darts now.

Quote:

The entire Broncos locker room is behind Kyle Orton. The players feel Orton gives them the best chance. I'll quote it again:

Orton is trying to Milli Vanilli his way through training camp. Lloyd is playing for a contract and Tebow's running does him no good. Other than that, there really haven't been a lot of comments coming from the team that one could construe as honest.

[mikenever]

Quote: Originally Posted by SPTO

Being able to take punishment has very little to do with the whole arm mechanics problem Tebow has. As we've seen in some instances if someone on the D-Line can get through and Tebow is about to throw all they have to do is swat the ball from behind Tebow because of his windup which will lead to the ball coming loose and a turnover. This has already happened to him IIRC and teams will continue to go after the ball in that manner until he develops a more compact delivery.

Its not so much that as it is the ability to play through contact and extent plays. A lot of times, if Tebow breaks a tackle, the field opens and the throwing motion is a non-issue.