Elite Quarterback Guideline

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

I still don't have Eli in my Elite group. I mean, is it really elite if you have six of them at a time? Eli is damn good, but he has not shown long-term consistency and looks totally lost at times. Brady, Rodgers, P.Manning and Brees rarely if ever look lost (again I consider this year a fluke for Brees as it does not fit the trend he has set over his career).

I never said Flacco was close to E.Manning or Ben but that they are in the same tier so to speak. Flacco just broke into that tier but still has to prove he can be the reason the Ravens win over the next few years, and not just a nice compliment to the defense an Rice.

Eli and the Giants just need more consistency. This past year seems to fit into a trend with Eli, coming off Superbowl seasons.

I just don't see Ben Rothlesberger as elite but I really cannot make a strong case against. The only thing I can put against him is that he does not seem to be healthy come playoff time.

[KingV2k3]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

IMO, "elite" is quickly becoming one of the most oversensationalized terms in the NFL vernacular.

Right up there with my recent "favorite":

Chunk Yardage (?)



True Elite:

Peyton / Brady

Near Elite:

Rodgers / Brees

The Hall of the VERY VERY Nearly Elite:

Eli

The Rest:

Warner / Big Ben / MAYBE Flacco

Elite (to me):

Wins + Playoff Wins + Stats + Clutch + "Influence" (Influence as in Peyton's audibles / hurry up or Brady's season by season retooled distribution focus)

[GrizzlyJuler]

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

Depends on what "elite" means. Eli got his big contract after his first SB and there was similar talk in that sense to what's going on now with Flacco's contract. As for Ben, if anything he was overhyped bc the Steelers went on a streak when he was inserted into the lineup and won the SB his first full season starting. If elite is being defined as being on the level of future HOFers like Brady and Peyton then no they weren't. Personally, my feeling is that if elite means HOF or future HOFer than why use the word at all? I look at Manning, Brady, Rodgers and Brees as players who are a heartbeat away from the Hall. Brees and Rodgers probably still have a bit of work to do, but very reachable milestones for them on their current pace. When I think of the "elite" QBs in the league, of course all of them are included but then I'd also include the next tier who have played at a high level and still have a chance at being in HOF mention, but don't deserve that kind of respect at the moment. But that's just my definition. Like I said, if yours requires multiple rings then that's fine too... of course you'd have to use a different criteria for some since I'm sure you'd still consider Peyton, Rodgers and Brees elite.

Fair enough, I can agree on that. Different opinions and different views and you can make a good case on yours and same goes with my side of the argument.

Regarding elite being considered future HOFs, I think it goes hand in hand. We were talking that a body of work and success is needed to be even considered elite but that falls for a HOF QB as well. No doubt Peyton and Brady fits those criteria perfectly. If I look at Eli, I think if he can string a few more statistically good seasons with some playoff wins(even if he doesnt win another superbowl) he should strongly be considered at least as a hall of famer maybe not a first ballot but I think he belongs there. Even though his play might not look as pretty like the Bradys/Peyton/Rodgers. And Ben I think right now he should at least be in that discussion. He's had the success and consistent body of work to earn that and really hasn't done anything to lose respect I should say. Pittsburgh been known to be ground and pound most of his years there so his numbers are not as sexy as a Drew Brees but doesn't take away his abilities as a good quarterback.

Also a to add a different perspective on being Elite. I mentioned on my earlier post about being clutch. Shouldn't that also be considered as a criteria necessary to being elite? Like Big Ben for example he has been in many big games in his career(though not recently and thats why I think people has forgotten about him) and most of the time he has came out the victor. Super Bowl 43 comes into mind for me. When pittsburgh got the ball down 3 with 2:22 left(was rooting for the cardinals) I was scared because I knew if there was a quarterback that can win this game, Big Ben is one of them. Surely enough he did just that. That kind of presence alone makes him elite in my books. On the flip side of this we have Peyton Manning. The best regular season quarterback in the history of the NFL IMO. But he hadn't had that kind of perfection in the playoffs. Thinking about it reminds me of a LeBron James but anyways you can't argue that if we go by playoff perfomance Peyton wouldn't be top of many people's list. Going from that, the clutch factor should be at least slightly considered when you think about who's elite, meaning the best quarterbacks in the game.

[kingkilla56]

Eli isnt elite. And it has nothing to do with long term consistency. Every QB in the league has hiccup games, multiple, a year. His head is in that elite category because he can read and dissect a defense with the best of them. But his arm doesnt do what he thinks it can half the time. His mechanics break down when he is pressured, and when he isnt pressured. He has pocket mobility but cant throw on the run worth a lick. No threat outside of the pocket. And like I said, his arm doesnt do what his brain wants it to. His arm isnt zipline strong but he can throw it deep depending on his mechanics at the time (flip a coin on this one). And his accuracy is just as flip a coin worthy.

He doesnt have a conscience on the field. He can throw 4 ints or 4 tds, lose 0-44 or win his second superbowl and you wouldnt know the difference looking at him. It all rolls off his back and thats an attribute that can be great at times and other times frustrate you as he's chilling on the sidelines as the Ravens completely embarrass his whole career on national television.

All that said. Eli is pretty good. But there are a handful of qbs id take before I took him, objectively thinking. But I cant complain about having him win us two bowls, and him progressing each and every season he's been in the league.

I dont buy the stats commentary or the lack of consistency commentary on why Eli is not elite. He takes too much flak for things the "boneafide elite" qbs also do negatively. Why I dont put him in elite category is more about his abilities. And if he had a stronger and more accurate arm he would be unstoppable. But as it is now, he can give you the good and he can definitely give you the head-scratcher. But I wouldnt trade him for anybody, subjectively speaking.

[GrizzlyJuler]

Quote: Originally Posted by kingkilla56

Eli isnt elite. And it has nothing to do with long term consistency. Every QB in the league has hiccup games, multiple, a year. His head is in that elite category because he can read and dissect a defense with the best of them. But his arm doesnt do what he thinks it can half the time. His mechanics break down when he is pressured, and when he isnt pressured. He has pocket mobility but cant throw on the run worth a lick. No threat outside of the pocket. And like I said, his arm doesnt do what his brain wants it to. His arm isnt zipline strong but he can throw it deep depending on his mechanics at the time (flip a coin on this one). And his accuracy is just as flip a coin worthy. He doesnt have a conscience on the field. He can throw 4 ints or 4 tds, lose 0-44 or win his second superbowl and you wouldnt know the difference looking at him. It all rolls off his back and thats an attribute that can be great at times and other times frustrate you as he's chilling on the sidelines as the Ravens completely embarrass his whole career on national television. All that said. Eli is pretty good. But there are a handful of qbs id take before I took him, objectively thinking. But I cant complain about having him win us two bowls, and him progressing each and every season he's been in the league. I dont buy the stats commentary or the lack of consistency commentary on why Eli is not elite. He takes too much flak for things the "boneafide elite" qbs also do negatively. Why I dont put him in elite category is more about his abilities. And if he had a stronger and more accurate arm he would be unstoppable. But as it is now, he can give you the good and he can definitely give you the head-scratcher. But I wouldnt trade him for anybody, subjectively speaking.

Lol you explained Eli perfectly. People will have different opinions on Eli because you can make a perfect case that he's not elite to his defend some will just point to his rings to argue that. Just the eye test alone, Eli is one of the best quarterbacks we have right now because in the biggest games thats when he played his best and you can't really ask more from a quarterback.

[wwharton]

Quote: Originally Posted by GrizzlyJuler

Fair enough, I can agree on that. Different opinions and different views and you can make a good case on yours and same goes with my side of the argument. Regarding elite being considered future HOFs, I think it goes hand in hand. We were talking that a body of work and success is needed to be even considered elite but that falls for a HOF QB as well. No doubt Peyton and Brady fits those criteria perfectly. If I look at Eli, I think if he can string a few more statistically good seasons with some playoff wins(even if he doesnt win another superbowl) he should strongly be considered at least as a hall of famer maybe not a first ballot but I think he belongs there. Even though his play might not look as pretty like the Bradys/Peyton/Rodgers. And Ben I think right now he should at least be in that discussion. He's had the success and consistent body of work to earn that and really hasn't done anything to lose respect I should say. Pittsburgh been known to be ground and pound most of his years there so his numbers are not as sexy as a Drew Brees but doesn't take away his abilities as a good quarterback. Also a to add a different perspective on being Elite. I mentioned on my earlier post about being clutch. Shouldn't that also be considered as a criteria necessary to being elite? Like Big Ben for example he has been in many big games in his career(though not recently and thats why I think people has forgotten about him) and most of the time he has came out the victor. Super Bowl 43 comes into mind for me. When pittsburgh got the ball down 3 with 2:22 left(was rooting for the cardinals) I was scared because I knew if there was a quarterback that can win this game, Big Ben is one of them. Surely enough he did just that. That kind of presence alone makes him elite in my books. On the flip side of this we have Peyton Manning. The best regular season quarterback in the history of the NFL IMO. But he hadn't had that kind of perfection in the playoffs. Thinking about it reminds me of a LeBron James but anyways you can't argue that if we go by playoff perfomance Peyton wouldn't be top of many people's list. Going from that, the clutch factor should be at least slightly considered when you think about who's elite, meaning the best quarterbacks in the game.

Since you mentioned eatlier you don't put Flacco with these two, can you explain how the description of Ben doesn't match Flacco? Especially your clutch category? Is it just that you havent seen him play as much?

[GrizzlyJuler]

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

Since you mentioned eatlier you don't put Flacco with these two, can you explain how the description of Ben doesn't match Flacco? Especially your clutch category? Is it just that you havent seen him play as much?

Yep that's pretty much it I mentioned it earlier that we haven't seen a lot of brilliance from Flacco in the post season or regular season to crown him as an elite yet aside from this year which was an all time great performance throughout.

[SteelersFreak]

In my mind:

Elite quarterbacks, guys who have done it on the big stage and are clearly the key to their team's sucess, without them, their team is significantly worse:

Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning

Close to elite quarterbacks, guys who have maybe done it just once, but are still consistently great quarterbacks:

Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Ryan, Eli Manning

Guys that are great quarterbacks but are still a bit unproven:

Matt Schaub, Joe Flacco, Tony Romo, Jay Cutler

Solid quarterbacks, not remarkable, but not really doing anything that's severely hurting their team:

Phillip Rivers, Carson Palmer, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Matthew Stafford, Sam Bradford, Josh Freeman

Guys that either not ready or not good enough to be a starting QB:

Mark Sanchez, Chad Henne, Brady Quinn/Matt Cassell, Michael Vick, whoever the Cardinals are starting


I think young guys need their own categories because I don't think its fair to throw them in with guys with years of experience so...

Guys with potential to be elite or near-elite

Robert Griffin III, Andrew Luck, Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick

Guys with potential to be solid quarterbacks

Andy Dalton, Cam Newton

Guys you just can't be sure about yet

Ryan Tannehill, Brandon Weeden, Jake Locker, Christian Ponder


This is a little more than the thread desired, but its kind of my thought process behind this.