2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

[jyoung]

According to ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

By percentage:

19. Predators - 93.5%
20. Lightning - 84.9%
21. Ducks - 84.8%
22. Hurricanes - 83.0%
23. Avalanche - 82.5%
24. Stars - 81.0%
25. Devils - 80.6%
26. Panthers - 78.9%
27. Blue Jackets - 73.2%
28. Thrashers - 69.3%
29. NY Islanders - 62.0%
30. Coyotes - 61.2%

By average attendance:

19. Lightning - 16,772
20. Predators - 15,999
21. Hurricanes - 15,540
22. Panthers - 15,182
23. Stars - 15,012
24. Avalanche - 14,858
25. Ducks - 14,569
26. Devils - 14,204
27. Blue Jackets - 13,283
28. Thrashers - 12,848
29. Coyotes - 10,716
30. NY Islanders - 10,111

The Preds played in front of 8,000 fans last night in Phoenix, so no surprise to see the Coyotes at the bottom. I am surprised, though, that the NHL seems intent on keeping that team in Phoenix.

Tampa Bay seems to be having a huge surge this year with Yzerman coming in and turning around the franchise.

Nashville is having another strong year in fan support. Predators are up into the 90% now in terms of filling the arena, which is a smaller one compared to other NHL rinks.

When I lived in Georgia, I went to a few Thrashers games, and they were just totally dead compared to what I've experienced with the Predators.

[DrJones]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

According to ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance

By percentage:



By average attendance:



The Preds played in front of 8,000 fans last night in Phoenix, so no surprise to see the Coyotes at the bottom. I am surprised, though, that the NHL seems intent on keeping that team in Phoenix.

Tampa Bay seems to be having a huge surge this year with Yzerman coming in and turning around the franchise.

Nashville is having another strong year in fan support. Predators are up into the 90% now in terms of filling the arena, which is a smaller one compared to other NHL rinks.

When I lived in Georgia, I went to a few Thrashers games, and they were just totally dead compared to what I've experienced with the Predators.

The attendance numbers for most of these markets are worse than they seem because the ticket prices tend to be much lower than in traditional locales. Except for New Jersey, which has ridiculously high prices.

Canadians in particular pay absurd prices. My favourite example, which I previously mentioned in another thread, is this.

2009/10 Edmonton Oilers (finished 30th overall): sold out every game, total attendance 691K in 41 regular season games.

2009/10 Chicago Blackhawks (finished 3rd overall): sold out every game, total attendance 854K in 41 regular season games.

Which team made more money on regular season ticket revenues? Edmonton did, despite drawing 160,000 fewer fans than Chicago, because of much higher ticket prices.

[Money99]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

The attendance numbers for most of these markets are worse than they seem because the ticket prices tend to be much lower than in traditional locales. Except for New Jersey, which has ridiculously high prices.

Canadians in particular pay absurd prices. My favourite example, which I previously mentioned in another thread, is this.

2009/10 Edmonton Oilers (finished 30th overall): sold out every game, total attendance 691K in 41 regular season games.

2009/10 Chicago Blackhawks (finished 3rd overall): sold out every game, total attendance 854K in 41 regular season games.

Which team made more money on regular season ticket revenues? Edmonton did, despite drawing 160,000 fewer fans than Chicago, because of much higher ticket prices.

Not only that, but those numbers also include tickets given away for free.
I've heard that Coytoes give anywhere between 3000-5000 tickets a night. So even if those people don't show up, it goes in the books as tickets consumed.

The funniest thing I've heard in a long time was when Bobby Ryan recently commented that they need to get a quick goal to take the "crowd out of the game" early. Hahaha!
Of course, the Coyotes spanked the Ducks that night, 6-2. But still, that was a pretty funny comment.

What would really help these teams is if more traditional teams came to town a little more often.
I have a hard time believing that the Coyotes attendance wouldn't be a lot stronger if you saw Philly, Pitt, Boston, Montreal or Toronto coming in every other night.
Sure, the travel would stink, but maybe that's where the beauty of a shorter season comes in.
If they only played 70 games, those extra days could be used for travel downtime allowing teams from the east to visit the west more.
I love my Wings, but I have to say it gets boring watching teams like the Wild, Coyotes and Predators on a nightly basis.
I miss the days when every game seemed to be played against an old-school hockey market.

[slickdtc]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

It hurts me when a competitive team isn't even drawing fans. I can give the Thrashers a pass because they've been mostly garbage since their inception a decade+ ago, but the Devils, Stars, Coyotes, Ducks, and Avs not drawing anyone despite success this year or last year just angers and saddens me.

They need to get these teams out of these markets. Not all of them, because not every market is going to sell out game in and game out, but ones that have struggled, even with a successful team in place, need to go. Then again, it's the NHL's money, if they don't want to get as much as they can, that's on them.

[Money99]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

It hurts me when a competitive team isn't even drawing fans. I can give the Thrashers a pass because they've been mostly garbage since their inception a decade+ ago, but the Devils, Stars, Coyotes, Ducks, and Avs not drawing anyone despite success this year or last year just angers and saddens me.

They need to get these teams out of these markets. Not all of them, because not every market is going to sell out game in and game out, but ones that have struggled, even with a successful team in place, need to go. Then again, it's the NHL's money, if they don't want to get as much as they can, that's on them.

Stars and Avs really surprised me too.
Maybe Denver really is a bandwagon hockey town. They've only had one bad year and since then they're attendance has dropped.
And it's not like they don't have stars or aren't exciting. Matt Duschene is one of the best, and most exciting, young players in the league.
I'd soil myself if the Wings had a young star like him.

[jyoung]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

I think Atlanta and Phoenix are in the worst shape right now.

I've been to Atlanta games, and that arena is a ghost town. One of the games I went to against Carolina couldn't have had more than 2,000 - 3,000 people there.

Remember, these attendance numbers are just in terms of seats sold, not number of people actually showing up when the puck drops.

[Money99]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

I think Atlanta and Phoenix are in the worst shape right now.

I've been to Atlanta games, and that arena is a ghost town. One of the games I went to against Carolina couldn't have had more than 2,000 - 3,000 people there.

Remember, these attendance numbers are just in terms of seats sold, not number of people actually showing up when the puck drops.

A friend of mine took in a Thrashers game sometime last year and he said the same thing.
At some point the NHL needs to step in. It's embarrassing to a league when you see more fans at a Junior B game in Flin Flon than in an NHL building.

[DrJones]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

I have a hard time believing that the Coyotes attendance wouldn't be a lot stronger if you saw Philly, Pitt, Boston, Montreal or Toronto coming in every other night.
Sure, the travel would stink, but maybe that's where the beauty of a shorter season comes in.
If they only played 70 games, those extra days could be used for travel downtime allowing teams from the east to visit the west more.
I love my Wings, but I have to say it gets boring watching teams like the Wild, Coyotes and Predators on a nightly basis.
I miss the days when every game seemed to be played against an old-school hockey market.

The number of games is never going to decrease; there's no way the potential gains in weak markets would be offset by 5-6 fewer home games for Toronto, Montreal, Philly, etc. I do want a more balanced schedule, however. I consider there to be only 9 marquee teams in the league (Original Six plus Philly, Pittsburgh, and Washington), and only 2 are from the West.

Assuming the number of teams/divisions stay the same, I'd break the schedule down as follows (using my Canucks as an example):

22 games vs Northwest opponents (4-5 games each)
30 games vs Central/Pacific opponents (3 games each)
30 games vs East opponents (2 games each)

In case someone's concerned about playing some division teams more often than others (or not having an equal number of home and away games against every opponent), the same thing happens every year in both MLB and the NBA, and I've never heard a complaint.

[Money99]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

The number of games is never going to decrease; there's no way the potential gains in weak markets would be offset by 5-6 fewer home games for Toronto, Montreal, Philly, etc. I do want a more balanced schedule, however. I consider there to be only 9 marquee teams in the league (Original Six plus Philly, Pittsburgh, and Washington), and only 2 are from the West.

Assuming the number of teams/divisions stay the same, I'd break the schedule down as follows (using my Canucks as an example):

22 games vs Northwest opponents (4-5 games each)
30 games vs Central/Pacific opponents (3 games each)
30 games vs East opponents (2 games each)

In case someone's concerned about playing some division teams more often than others (or not having an equal number of home and away games against every opponent), the same thing happens every year in both MLB and the NBA, and I've never heard a complaint.

I've read reports that in the past the PA has asked for a shorter season. In each case, the league actually said they'd accommodate them as long as they took the appropriate pay-cut to match the loss in games. But the PA didn't want any part of that.

I wonder if that attitude has changed since the lockout? The game has never been more dangerous and intense. I've heard some coaches say that games in October look like playoff games.
So maybe the players would be cool with chopping off 8 or 10 games and take the paycut with it? I doubt it.

But one area where maybe they can help out is cut the preseason in half and start the season earlier. I know they hate competing against MLB and NFL, but I wonder what starting 2 weeks earlier would do.

[jyoung]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

Wider rinks like in some of the other pro leagues and international games would be a good way to lessen injuries, but obviously, that's not going to happen since many arenas don't have that extra space built into their floor plan.

Automatic icing calls would help somewhat with the injuries.

But I heard the league didn't want automatic icing because it would "slow the game down" and make it "less exciting."

If you look at some of the teams that have been hit hard with injuries this year (New York, Nashville, etc.), it has gotten so ridiculous that teams are almost half-full of AHL call-ups and career 3rd/4th liners.

The game would be a lot more "exciting" if the stars stayed healthy all year instead of missing so many games to injury. I don't see why the NHL can't understand that.

[GrandMaster B]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

We are not giving away tickets this year. That is what is so promising. Last year we were. This year, what you see is what you get. Although not spectacular by any means, none of those are giveaways.

Another thing, almost all teams have special discounts on tickets and concessions to get people to go to games. Maybe not in traditional markets where people would line up to see any semblance of a team on the ice, but it is not just in Phoenix. We have to do everything we can to get people out to the games with no marketing budget. If and when we get a new owner in here, that is one of the first things they are going to do.

[DrJones]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

I've read reports that in the past the PA has asked for a shorter season. In each case, the league actually said they'd accommodate them as long as they took the appropriate pay-cut to match the loss in games. But the PA didn't want any part of that.

I wonder if that attitude has changed since the lockout? The game has never been more dangerous and intense. I've heard some coaches say that games in October look like playoff games.
So maybe the players would be cool with chopping off 8 or 10 games and take the paycut with it? I doubt it.

But one area where maybe they can help out is cut the preseason in half and start the season earlier. I know they hate competing against MLB and NFL, but I wonder what starting 2 weeks earlier would do.

The next time the players or league in any sport voluntarily sacrifice $$$ for safety (or any other reason, for that matter) will be the first. I don't see the preseason being cut. I don't know about other markets, but Vancouver charges full regular-season prices for preseason games (both for single game and season tickets).

Regarding the safety issue, what I'd like to know is where are all these softer shoulder and elbow pads that have been talked about forever?

[Kobalt]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

Surprise Avs are not 30th, their attendance this yr has been awful.

[Money99]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

The next time the players or league in any sport voluntarily sacrifice $$$ for safety (or any other reason, for that matter) will be the first. I don't see the preseason being cut. I don't know about other markets, but Vancouver charges full regular-season prices for preseason games (both for single game and season tickets).

Regarding the safety issue, what I'd like to know is where are all these softer shoulder and elbow pads that have been talked about forever?

There was a segment about this on TV the other day. I can't remember if it was TSN or 24/7.
But they spoke with Kris King and he showed how the new gear has to have a 1" layer of cloth over the hard caps.
So all the players are still wearing hard caps. They're just muffled somewhat.

The league tried to ban all hard caps, but the PA shot it down. They were worried there would be too many shoulder injuries.
But maybe that's the point. If your body can't stand up to hits you deliver, what do you think is going to happen to the person who's receiving them?
All hard cap gear should be tossed. Players will be forced to pick their shots to prevent their own injury and you wouldn't see any more hits like the ones ding-dongs like Colby Armstrong love to deliver.

[Money99]

Re: 2011 attendance in non-traditional markets

Coyotes sale back in the toilet:

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/hockey/comments/trouble_with_coyotes_sale/

The audio is pretty interesting.
First he talks about how the Coyotes have slashed their $9 tickets in half.
They also discuss how if they're having problems getting fans now, with free parking, how are they going to draw fans once they start getting charged $20 for parking?

I was also surprised to hear how bad things could be in Atlanta. I thought they were doing fine. In fact, one report I read said that as long as they get 10K, they make money because the building is used almost nightly to offset costs to the hockey team.
But McCown makes it sound like they can't wait to get moved out of Atlanta.

To be honest, I'm not one of those crazy Canadians that think every major city in our country deserves a team. But I want some of these teams moved to a place that will appreciate them.

I really think Seattle, WA would go nuts over an NHL team. Especially since they've lost the SuperSonics.
Same with Portland, Maine.