Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

I just re-read the blog now that I'm more awake and started thinking. They are using the same animation system as Fifa08 and NBAStreet. As well as it seems the collison detection physics system from Fifa. I don't know how many of you guys have played Fifa, if you haven't you'll be pleased. The tackling engine is awesome. Depending on how you hit them it really does vary the animations. I've seen guys tumble end over end, sideways and face first. There are really a ton of different ways that animate over the course of a match. And it isn't always just you and the defender. It's other players interacting around the direct action, too. It feels more organic, less "canned." Can't really explain it. Of course there are the same basic 1 on 1 scenarios vs. the gang interaction of football. But I will say that it is cool to see different EA studios sharing tech that advances the quality of EA titles. I am waiting until late June when we get to see the final build. But I will say that Tiburon has added a BIG addition with this new toy!

[BezO]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

This was in last year and the year before that.
None of this is new.
You must be refering to the specifics situations as follows:

@00.21 second mark a RB gets tackled and looks to fall forward for extra yards (last year).
@00.23 second mark the LB knocks runner on his a$$ (last year).

Yeah, but there were plenty of times the momentum of a tackle would be off in '08. A ball carrier would appear to have the momentum advantage but still get stopped in his tracks. In this vid at least, all the momentum in the tackles seemed right. Tackles seemed to end the way momentum dictated.

The blog is still puzzling though. He mentions solving the "explosion" problem, but didn't show any gang tackles. A couple of times the perfect situation was unfolding to show off their solution, and instead they cut the scene. AND I saw at least one explosion. I think EA's definition of solved is a bit different than most dictionaries.

I'd like to see blocking & gang tackling blogs.

[Goffs]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

meh trailers, pics wont sway me...though this does look good im just going to wait for impressions from you guys

[RGiles36]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

No offense to anyone, but a lot of you guys are brutal lol.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having high expectations. But, did you really, in your heart of hearts, expect a 180 degree turn from Madden 08? What I expected to see is improvment and that's what I see in this video.

It's amazing that some of you are in a uproar about this not being a whole new engine. Honestly, what did you expect? Would it be nice to have an entire new physics engine? Of course it would! But it's impractical to think it would happen with Madden 2009. After all, isn't Madden 2008 a revamped engine from the 2006 & 2007 editions? I'm not certain, but that's been my understanding. If that is the case, then I would not expect them abandon the engine after one year's use.

I'm not saying to dumb down expectations of what a next gen football game should be. I have expectations of my own, believe me and there is still LOTS of room for improvment. But after Madden '06, '07, and '08, again, what did you really expect.

On another note, I know I'll catch flack for this, but I'm not all that impressed with Euphoria. Yes, I have GTA IV, and have seen the Backbreaker vid diaries. But, it's not anything that you don't get used to. I mean, it's nice when you get hit by a train or freefall from a building. But other than that, I hardly notice it. Again, would it be nice to have Euphoria? Of course! But I don't think it's everything that everyone makes it out to be. Give me a healthy variety of animations a la NFL2K5 and I'm good.

[jfsolo]

Re: New Blog And Video (Tackling Engine)

I am happy that they've brought in a guy who worked with Fia and Homecourt. Now I don't know if he worked with the guys on Fifa08, but if he did, that is the best animated EA Sports title to date. And I can see the differences that the new animation system has made. Now I gotta agree with the guys who are rightly bringing up where it is still the same tackling AI with a animation upgrade. Since they've made it know that they have given up trying to implement In-game saves to tune instead, they really need to optimize the tackling/defensive pursuit AI. The fundimental problem is that it's too many 1 on 1 scenarios where the defenders have to get in line to take their turn at the ball carrier. They have to get it where 5 guys can all converge at the same point of attack at the same time. On the vid I actually saw where there were guys who had converged in the area in a realistic looking way. But they have to stand around or seem distracted by their offensive counterparts that are nearby. They are supposed to ALL go get the ball carrier. But it seems they can't. Of course Tiburon finally figured out how to get 2 man tackles right last year. (won't go there...)

I think at my "sim" anal heart, this is the kind of approach that Madden takes that just erks me. Football is a team sport, not a glorified set of 1 on 1's. Most decent power runners are going to win those battles. OK they seem to have gotten it where a runner can break those tackles now. But it just amplifies how bad Madden's team defensive AI is. Things like the fact that a safety comes all the way over to get in the conga line on a breakaway run instead of heading on an angle for the pylon just looks terrible and "high school." And that you can easily break the pocket because the DL can't get out of the suction block and seems to only be able to focus on the battle with the OL. He's always supposed to be in pursuit of the ball and has to read and react. Same thing with LB's and safeties. This is why they made play action. To confuse those reads. Otherwise the D will have a natural advantage.

There's just so much of Madden that is flawed. Down and distance don't matter. Fundimental coaching and football strategy don't. They have jukes to make every player into another Barry Sanders. And WWE-style hit sticks. You don't need all of that if you get the basics right. With proper blocking you can have the time for a decent receiver to get open. And with proper defensive AI you don't need every play to be a Ray Lewis highlight film. Please, I don't want everything now. Just use the time remaining to figure out how to get those guys from 2 yards away to where they need to be at the point of attack, and I'll be happy. And yes I know that they can't truly gang tackle yet..... But get it as close to "real" as possible.

Great Post.

This is the thing that I have always felt about the basketball video games. The A.I. "understood" and played the game in a manner that was equivalent to a 10 or 11 year old just learning the rudimentary aspects of the game. The high level strategy and tactics that you would see in college or the pros weren't present. This past year I felt that NBA 2k8 and CHoops 2k8 made a quantum leap in the way the A.I. played the game, playing more like an average high school team, although of course it could still get much, much better.

The football game's are still at the Pop Warner level as far as A.I. is concerned, and maybe that is intentional so as not to alienate the casual fan. This is what the higher difficulty levels should be about, advanced football strategy by the A.I., and not boosted strength and speed ratings. They're slowly(much too slowly for a lot of people here) getting the animation and collision detection issues ironed out, but A.I. still is lagging behind.

We'll see if the Madden I.Q. feature gives us any positive improvements in terms of how the A.I. plays.

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

And this will never happen. What you call engine in this statement game developers call a Library. When sports game developers start up they create a library that houses ALL of their games. This is why it is easy for them to move people off one game and work on another one. While they have to code for a different game, they are still coding within the same library. That's why EA was able to get this guy. The Library/Engine is the same engine in every game, it's just a different sport. They are not going to get a new library for one game under their umbrella. It would have to be for all of them. So the only thing you and I can hope for is that the current library is flexible enough for the desired changes that we want to see.

I see what you're saying regarding what he said, but I think he was referring more to the underlying AI governing gameplay vs. the middleware. Middleware is a part of the general library that each team shares. And can be manipulated easily by anyone off any team. It's the guys who write the code for each specific game that need new toys. The underlying AI for Madden/NCAA is what's broken in many of our opinions. The coding that governs OL/DL interaction and responsibility needs re-written. It's old,old code.

And that brings up a question as to whether or not it is fixable. Is the code able to be re-written as part of the core gameplay AI? Does the basic engine allow for specific OL/DL coding or is it just a variation of the same general rules that all players share? It seems many times that players aren't really all that different in their actions, they just have different ratings that don't allow them to do things well. That works well for "skilled" players, but not Lineman. They play the game totally differently. And you can't just cover what they do with captured animations. They have to run totally different AI routines. Really an LB has to have his own set as well as DB's. The reason that we never get a really authentic looking game is that they don't have a deep decision engine for the various positions. Now that EACA is sharing tech, how about the 35-point decision engine form Fifa? Maybe it can be cut and pasted, maybe not. But there are games in EA's own portfolio that are making great strides in "smartening" up their players.

[Steeler99]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

No offense to anyone, but a lot of you guys are brutal lol.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with having high expectations. But, did you really, in your heart of hearts, expect a 180 degree turn from Madden 08? What I expected to see is improvment and that's what I see in this video.

It's amazing that some of you are in a uproar about this not being a whole new engine. Honestly, what did you expect? Would it be nice to have an entire new physics engine? Of course it would! But it's impractical to think it would happen with Madden 2009. After all, isn't Madden 2008 a revamped engine from the 2006 & 2007 editions? I'm not certain, but that's been my understanding. If that is the case, then I would not expect them abandon the engine after one year's use.

I'm not saying to dumb down expectations of what a next gen football game should be. I have expectations of my own, believe me and there is still LOTS of room for improvment. But after Madden '06, '07, and '08, again, what did you really expect.

On another note, I know I'll catch flack for this, but I'm not all that impressed with Euphoria. Yes, I have GTA IV, and have seen the Backbreaker vid diaries. But, it's not anything that you don't get used to. I mean, it's nice when you get hit by a train or freefall from a building. But other than that, I hardly notice it. Again, would it be nice to have Euphoria? Of course! But I don't think it's everything that everyone makes it out to be. Give me a healthy variety of animations a la NFL2K5 and I'm good.

Your probably right that we expect too much from year to year, but I think the biggest reason we as a group do nit-pick is the fact that 4 yrs into next-gen we are still "wishing" for past-gen aspects to make it back into the game! We're not even talking about future improvements ... just get the old stuff back in the game!

Overall I have always enjoyed the gameplay, however it's hard to be happy when many of the positive features from years past are not even in our "advanced" versions of today's game? I don't recall which year was my favorite, but I vivdly recall having some of my favorite franchise years with an earlier version that included custom playbooks, formation subs, player/position editing (i.e. make my DE an OLB), in-game saves, accelerated clock, stadium building, coach editing (so I can change the coach to me in the first season), and several other options I can't think of off the top of my head.

I don't really consider it nit-picking to expect those important features of past to be included in our current games. EA always seems to focus too much effort on gimmicky features versus more important gameplay/sim/editing features. Just my .02

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

And this will never happen. What you call engine in this statement game developers call a Library. When sports game developers start up they create a library that houses ALL of their games. This is why it is easy for them to move people off one game and work on another one. While they have to code for a different game, they are still coding within the same library. That's why EA was able to get this guy. The Library/Engine is the same engine in every game, it's just a different sport. They are not going to get a new library for one game under their umbrella. It would have to be for all of them. So the only thing you and I can hope for is that the current library is flexible enough for the desired changes that we want to see.

Very good points

[ewto16]

Just curious...how is no suction tackling, faster and more varied animation collisions and the ability to have multiple ways of breaking tackles no difference?

I think his point is that he doesn't see any of that stuff in the video. Personally, I don't either. I see the same exact tackle/juke/missed tackle animations that I've seen for the last 8 years. I still don't see gang tackles. I still see defenders getting blown out of the play. I still see defenders just stopping as soon as the animation declares it is a tackle instead of following through on the play.

Really, it is the same thing we hear every single year. I just don't see the difference.

[TurboTitan]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

Its a bit suprising how easily some people are swayed or impressed. That is exactly why EA has started advertising so early this year. Considering their track record on the 360/PS3, there is NOWAY I am getting my hopes up or commiting to buying this thing. Its kinda like "tackling looks a bit better..... Im buying it!!!" Did we forget about all the bugs/glitches that infested 08? One thing that has been missing from Madden forever animation-wise, that I think there is no excuse for, is a tripping/stumbling animation. How many times in a game do you almost see a LB get juked, but he sticks out his hand and barely is able to trip the runner up......or a back is going around the edge and just loses his footing and stumbles. it happens almost every play, but you never see it "in the game".

[NYG_Meth]

Re: New Blog And Video (Tackling Engine)

I feel as if this article is a subtle or not so subtle attempt to undermine Backbreaker's newly touted ragdoll animations. While that game won't be a true competitor to EA, it does seem like an EA practice to preempt any competition in their sector which may be burgeoning.

Backbreaker uses NaturalMotion, NOT ragdoll physics.

[Deltron]

Re: New Blog And Video (Tackling Engine)

Backbreaker uses NaturalMotion, NOT ragdoll physics.

Probably a semantics debate.

The definition from the article appears to align with what I've seen of Backbreaker:

"Ragdoll: When physics are used to take over posing a 3D character, usually with a system that behaves like a crash test dummy, or a dummy with springs attached called "Powered Ragdoll".

[NYG_Meth]

Re: New Blog And Video (Tackling Engine)

Probably a semantics debate.

The definition from the article appears to align with what I've seen of Backbreaker:

"Ragdoll: When physics are used to take over posing a 3D character, usually with a system that behaves like a crash test dummy, or a dummy with springs attached called "Powered Ragdoll".

Trust me, there's a big difference.

[Deltron]

Re: New Blog And Video (Tackling Engine)

I agree with this. There is no add on tackling, which is gonna be a problem IMO with the way the backs break out of tackles, but I'm just not in the mood to take these things to task anymore.

That's a great point. Without add on tackling more freedom in the running game and broken tackles could be tough to stop. Hopefully they at least do away with the falling down animation defenders tended to have when they come into contact with a tackling animation taking place that they are not a part of.

[Deltron]

Re: New Blog And Video (Tackling Engine)

Trust me, there's a big difference.

Could you explain?

I don't really expect an EA blog to come out and say NaturalMotion but the way they went about taking a jab at newer physics systems in football games is apparent to me at least.