Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

[drlw322]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.....I feel you. I guess my definition of a "gang tackle" is lost here. Or too "hardcore." I just need to stop being so anal retentive and learn to think and speak "Maddenese." LOL.....

i you watch carefully in the ncaa gameplay video it doesn't really have the blow up effect. infact players coming in late have different animation of avoiding the so call dog pile. even players helping other players up

[SageInfinite]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

Yeah the 3rd/4th guy tackling after the 1st/2cnd guy falls off or the 3rd /4th guy blowing up like they stepped on a land mine doesn't count.

[LBzrule]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

Not two man tackles. Multi-player (3 or more) converging tackles, resulting in a pile. This is what EA has been able to accomplish so far. We know they can do two. But then everyone else has to wait for that animation to clear. We're talking about the third man joining in and so forth and so on....

ACtually I think people are talking about something a little distinct even when they talk about two player tackling. I don't care what the CPU does. But are you going to allow ME to add on to a tackle. And that has not been a part of their games. Sure the A.I might take two guys and tackle somebody, but it hasn't allow me to do nothing but sit there and watch things play out.

[Vadiplomat04]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

ACtually I think people are talking about something a little distinct even when they talk about two player tackling. I don't care what the CPU does. But are you going to allow ME to add on to a tackle. And that has not been a part of their games. Sure the A.I might take two guys and tackle somebody, but it hasn't allow me to do nothing but sit there and watch things play out.

Your right that you should be able to add on....but you have to ask your self the question how many tacklers do you want to add on to one tackle....you could have a case were you have six or seven people tackling one player. You'll just have a big pile of bodys instead of a 3 man tackle that knocks off the defender when that the 4th one engages into the tackle. If you watch football, defenders always knock off other defenders. Its rare that you get a tackle were more then 3 people get a good hold on a defender.....after that people are either going to grab there own teammate or knock off their own teammate

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

ACtually I think people are talking about something a little distinct even when they talk about two player tackling. I don't care what the CPU does. But are you going to allow ME to add on to a tackle. And that has not been a part of their games. Sure the A.I might take two guys and tackle somebody, but it hasn't allow me to do nothing but sit there and watch things play out.

I feel what you're saying. I'm really talking about the same thing. Even if the first two stand up the RB the game doesn't let you come in and finish with a third. They don't have the type of tackles that would be needed to stop a Jerome Bettis-type power back. Everybodys in on the tackle to stop him or he's shedding them one at a time. Instead they give you a Ray Lewis Super Power tackle to pop him. When in reality they need to have more support. This year it seems you can shed the tackles and then they chip away at you while you're gaining yards. Still no realistic run support. There's a reason a elite RB only gains about 5 a carry..... (not saying that at you....)

[yamabushi]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

I like how people are already judgeing this game based off of one video....LOL. If you want to know what this engine looks like in action, watch the NCAA videos that OS took at the EA event. Thats more of what you'll see in Madden, then the video posted on the blog.

PS. there are gang tackles in this video, but they happen so fast in the trailer you don't see it. Watch some of the video frame by frame and you'll notice so of the little stuff that you can't see when playing it at regular speed. ***There is a gang tackle by Ray Lewis and Suggs that looks very real....but it happends really fast...somebody look for it in the trailer.

Were not judging the game off of 1 video or even 100 videos, were judging it off of years of ineptness.
And why should I look at NCAA videos to see something about madden? Ive been told they have nothing to do with each other.

[LBzrule]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

Your right that you should be able to add on....but you have to ask your self the question how many tacklers do you want to add on to one tackle....you could have a case were you have six or seven people tackling one player. You'll just have a big pile of bodys instead of a 3 man tackle that knocks off the defender when that the 4th one engages into the tackle. If you watch football, defenders all was knock off other defenders. Its rare that you get a tackle were more then 3 people get a good hold on a defender.....after that people are either going to grab there own teammate or knock off their own teammate

Yes. I'm not going to move into the 3 and 4 man yet. At this point why can't we allow two guys at anytime, user controlled to do this? Let's play this out by taking a look at some images.

Image 1



Notice in this image here Linebacker Michael Boley is on the ball carriers hip. This was due to the angle he took as well as the position of the HB. Now you have CB DeAngelo Hall here. What users want from what I gather is that in this given situation, they want to take over Hall and come in and finish off the runner. But this level of complexity has not been there in Madden and NCAA. Not saying it's not there this go around, I dont know but let's explore some issues as to why it has not been there. First of all, let's look at McAlister and Boley. Linebackers do not waist tackle like that in Madden/NCAA. It's always been the super hit or miss. And if it was the super hit the play was over.

Second, McAlister has momentum and it does not completely come to a halt just because he encounters a defender, but in Madden/NCAA that has always been the case. Even though you have momentum, once you come into contact that momentum comes to a skreetching halt. Third, because of his momentum now it is a struggle/fight between McAlister and Boley. With Boley holding on, Hall should be able to come in and clean up. In Madden/NCAA we have never been able to do this. But this is true two player tackling. Hall doesn't have to knock Boley off. Boley is already in a position to where Hall or any other defender coming in will not knock him off. The key here though for this to happen is the back has to struggle upon contact with the first defender, something that has not been a part of Madden/NCAA.

EA has done a good job of capturing this



These are hits that are a part of the game and EA has done a good job of capturing those style of hits. However, context for those style of hits are not taken seriously. Ray Lewis decleated Pittman here because Pittman was unaware of Lewis. In EA's game you decleat players even when they are aware of you. It's the same thing with the pancake blocking. In video games they have guys pancaking guys that should not get pancaked. Linemen are most likely not going to pancake a defender who is aware of them. I see it in All Pro all the time and just shake my head. The OLB is standing there looking right at the TE and gets pancaked. Makes no sense.

Diagram 3



What EA has not been so good at is the above diagram. George and the defender are both aware of one another. George's momentum carries him. Even though the defender makes the tackle he does not stop George upon contact and as a result George scored the TD in that game. No struggle by the backs = flat tackling/break tackling. Seems to me that's what people who are criticizing are getting at.

The images here are rather fluid and my interpretation is not the only one, but I just tried to give some visual of what it is people seem to be talking about in their critique.

[BezO]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

I think your definition of 3 man or 4 man gang tackle is that the 3 or 4 defenders tackle the same person...my definition is 2 people could tackle a player then get knocked off by the third defender when he engages into the tackle. I don't know thats just me

Yeah, your definition is in line with EA's. I thought their blog about 3-4 man tackles last year was hilarious. Problem is, EA seems to have a MAX of 2, and even that's rare. In Madden, no matter what, if a 3rd defender comes in, someone is taken out. The game seems to have a max of 3 models interacting. And even that's rare.

9 times out of 10, only the 1st defender engages. At best, a 2nd defender may come clean up, knocking the 1st tackler off. In '08, I may have seen 1-2 2-man tackles(2 defenders engaged at the same time) per game. And understand why folks don't like this, especially with all this new control over ball carriers and the talk of broken tackles. The key to bringing down a back is gang tackling. If we can't get more than 1 defender to wrap the ball carrier up, RBs will be running wild.

Watch a Cheifs, Browns, Vikings, Cowboys, Giants, 49ers game... teams with stronger RBs, and see how often it takes 2+ defenders to take them down. It happens quite often.

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

Did George get the TD? His knee was CLEARLY down with the ball short of the end zone. But they did lose. HaHa. I won money on that game......

[Vadiplomat04]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

Were not judging the game off of 1 video or even 100 videos, were judging it off of years of ineptness.
And why should I look at NCAA videos to see something about madden? Ive been told they have nothing to do with each other.

The tackling engine is being used in both NCAA and Madden.....go look at the top of the blog and its says NCAA AND MADDEN.

[Vadiplomat04]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

Yeah, your definition is in line with EA's. I thought their blog about 3-4 man tackles last year was hilarious. Problem is, EA seems to have a MAX of 2, and even that's rare. In Madden, no matter what, if a 3rd defender comes in, someone is taken out. The game seems to have a max of 3 models interacting. And even that's rare.

9 times out of 10, only the 1st defender engages. At best, a 2nd defender may come clean up, knocking the 1st tackler off. In '08, I may have seen 1-2 2-man tackles(2 defenders engaged at the same time) per game. And understand why folks don't like this, especially with all this new control over ball carriers and the talk of broken tackles. The key to bringing down a back is gang tackling. If we can't get more than 1 defender to wrap the ball carrier up, RBs will be running wild.

Watch a Cheifs, Browns, Vikings, Cowboys, Giants, 49ers game... teams with stronger RBs, and see how often it takes 2+ defenders to take them down. It happens quite often.

Ok....so you said that it takes two defenders to take a RB down...so what is the issue with the game if the do have 2+ defenders in the game. And if you played 08' you do have control of the second (clean up) defender. I have had many hit stick tackles were the defender would stand up the defender then I would come and hit stick the ball carrier. The thing that need to be worked on is the AI of the CPU defeners adding on to the ball carrier

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

Yeah, your definition is in line with EA's. I thought their blog about 3-4 man tackles last year was hilarious. Problem is, EA seems to have a MAX of 2, and even that's rare. In Madden, no matter what, if a 3rd defender comes in, someone is taken out. The game seems to have a max of 3 models interacting. And even that's rare.

9 times out of 10, only the 1st defender engages. At best, a 2nd defender may come clean up, knocking the 1st tackler off. In '08, I may have seen 1-2 2-man tackles(2 defenders engaged at the same time) per game. And understand why folks don't like this, especially with all this new control over ball carriers and the talk of broken tackles. The key to bringing down a back is gang tackling. If we can't get more than 1 defender to wrap the ball carrier up, RBs will be running wild.

Watch a Cheifs, Browns, Vikings, Cowboys, Giants, 49ers game... teams with stronger RBs, and see how often it takes 2+ defenders to take them down. It happens quite often.

I agree with all of that. Also watch when guys like Freeney play or Javon Kearse and see how often teams have to go into "max protect." Don't have to do that in Madden as the OL goes all suction or pancakes your butt, allowing you time to complete the 50 yard bomb! Those little things are not so little. And teach terrible football fundimentals.....

[BrianFifaFan]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

Yes. I'm not going to move into the 3 and 4 man yet. At this point why can't we allow two guys at anytime, user controlled to do this? Let's play this out by taking a look at some images.

Image 1



Notice in this image here Linebacker Michael Boley is on the ball carriers hip. This was due to the angle he took as well as the position of the HB. Now you have CB DeAngelo Hall here. What users want from what I gather is that in this given situation, they want to take over Hall and come in and finish off the runner. But this level of complexity has not been there in Madden and NCAA. Not saying it's not there this go around, I dont know but let's explore some issues as to why it has not been there. First of all, let's look at McAlister and Boley. Linebackers do not waist tackle like that in Madden/NCAA. It's always been the super hit or miss. And if it was the super hit the play was over.

Second, McAlister has momentum and it does not completely come to a halt just because he encounters a defender, but in Madden/NCAA that has always been the case. Even though you have momentum, once you come into contact that momentum comes to a skreetching halt. Third, because of his momentum now it is a struggle/fight between McAlister and Boley. With Boley holding on, Hall should be able to come in and clean up. In Madden/NCAA we have never been able to do this. But this is true two player tackling. Hall doesn't have to knock Boley off. Boley is already in a position to where Hall or any other defender coming in will not knock him off. The key here though for this to happen is the back has to struggle upon contact with the first defender, something that has not been a part of Madden/NCAA.

EA has done a good job of capturing this



These are hits that are a part of the game and EA has done a good job of capturing those style of hits. However, context for those style of hits are not taken seriously. Ray Lewis decleated Pittman here because Pittman was unaware of Lewis. In EA's game you decleat players even when they are aware of you. It's the same thing with the pancake blocking. In video games they have guys pancaking guys that should not get pancaked. Linemen are most likely not going to pancake a defender who is aware of them. I see it in All Pro all the time and just shake my head. The OLB is standing there looking right at the TE and gets pancaked. Makes no sense.

Diagram 3



What EA has not been so good at is the above diagram. George and the defender are both aware of one another. George's momentum carries him. Even though the defender makes the tackle he does not stop George upon contact and as a result George scored the TD in that game. No struggle by the backs = flat tackling/break tackling. Seems to me that's what people who are criticizing are getting at.

The images here are rather fluid and my interpretation is not the only one, but I just tried to give some visual of what it is people seem to be talking about in their critique.

Those are great and I really hope to see tackles or attempts at tackles like that first one. I want to see Duce dragging a defender and then watch him have to duck as the safety comes in to knock some snot bubbles out of him.

[IStillDoWhatIDo]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

okay, the video was impressive, but I have a few concerns. My main concern was the 4 year old "15 yard facemask" tackle where they two tango in a circle. I dont have a major problem with that animation, but I don't see how physics can prompt that, especially since it's a KNOWN canned animation.

However, I flat out LOVE the :59 second mark where the ball carrier is running and the defender grabs his facemask, and he breaks out and keeps running. I HOPE they have face mask penalties in the game this year.

[Vadiplomat04]

Re: Madden 09: Tackling Engine Blog & Video

Yes. I'm not going to move into the 3 and 4 man yet. At this point why can't we allow two guys at anytime, user controlled to do this? Let's play this out by taking a look at some images.

Image 1



Notice in this image here Linebacker Michael Boley is on the ball carriers hip. This was due to the angle he took as well as the position of the HB. Now you have CB DeAngelo Hall here. What users want from what I gather is that in this given situation, they want to take over Hall and come in and finish off the runner. But this level of complexity has not been there in Madden and NCAA. Not saying it's not there this go around, I dont know but let's explore some issues as to why it has not been there. First of all, let's look at McAlister and Boley. Linebackers do not waist tackle like that in Madden/NCAA. It's always been the super hit or miss. And if it was the super hit the play was over.

Second, McAlister has momentum and it does not completely come to a halt just because he encounters a defender, but in Madden/NCAA that has always been the case. Even though you have momentum, once you come into contact that momentum comes to a skreetching halt. Third, because of his momentum now it is a struggle/fight between McAlister and Boley. With Boley holding on, Hall should be able to come in and clean up. In Madden/NCAA we have never been able to do this. But this is true two player tackling. Hall doesn't have to knock Boley off. Boley is already in a position to where Hall or any other defender coming in will not knock him off. The key here though for this to happen is the back has to struggle upon contact with the first defender, something that has not been a part of Madden/NCAA.

EA has done a good job of capturing this



These are hits that are a part of the game and EA has done a good job of capturing those style of hits. However, context for those style of hits are not taken seriously. Ray Lewis decleated Pittman here because Pittman was unaware of Lewis. In EA's game you decleat players even when they are aware of you. It's the same thing with the pancake blocking. In video games they have guys pancaking guys that should not get pancaked. Linemen are most likely not going to pancake a defender who is aware of them. I see it in All Pro all the time and just shake my head. The OLB is standing there looking right at the TE and gets pancaked. Makes no sense.

Diagram 3



What EA has not been so good at is the above diagram. George and the defender are both aware of one another. George's momentum carries him. Even though the defender makes the tackle he does not stop George upon contact and as a result George scored the TD in that game. No struggle by the backs = flat tackling/break tackling. Seems to me that's what people who are criticizing are getting at.

The images here are rather fluid and my interpretation is not the only one, but I just tried to give some visual of what it is people seem to be talking about in their critique.

I agree with what your saying here....but if you read the blog it states that the new engine can brake animations at any point, so most of your issues with the engine are resolved do to that fact of having the animation brake out at any time. The hall picture for example where you want Hall to clean up the ball carrier can happend because the animation wouldn't play all the way out, it would be interupted by hall's tackle. Now what I really want to see is Hall hit the ballcarrier but the guy tackling the RB still holds on to him.